[Lnc-business] Candidate contracts - legal advice?

Sat Oct 22 23:57:31 EDT 2016

I love the idea Starchild- i was focusing on the legal question Arvin
presented.

Your last paragraph was beautiful.  I fear we are getting too in love with
playing the game of thrones and not enough in love with our principles.
(The "we" is general and directed at anyone specifically or even us here as
a body - it is a general community concern I have)

On Saturday, October 22, 2016, Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sfdreamer at earthlink.net');>> wrote:

> Obviously there are practical difficulties to surmount in terms of
> crafting the kind of contract Arvin is suggesting, and they may or may not
> prove surmountable, but I like the way he's thinking. Candidates taking
> more statist positions once in office than they promised on the campaign
> trail is just the kind of seemingly intractable problem that could use more
> creative, outside-the-box brainstorming.
>
> Holding Libertarian candidates and officeholders in particular accountable
> is key not just to getting better short term legislative outcomes, but in
> the long term to keeping the Libertarian Party itself sustainably
> libertarian.
>
> One reason government officials in a democratic republic like the United
> States have become as statist as they are is that they are not faithfully
> representing the views of their own grassroots supporters, who while seldom
> as libertarian as members of the Libertarian Party, are still generally
> more libertarian than the leaders of their parties.
>
> Behind this failure of representation is the fact that members of the
> cartel parties have allowed the collective power of those parties, which
> could be used as a mechanism to keep the politicians who affiliate with
> them in check, to be captured by the politicians themselves rather than
> keeping control at the organizational level and making sure the
> organization itself is run in a bottom-up manner with ultimate power in the
> hands of its members. Thus their politicians control the organization
> rather than vice-versa, and having nothing to fear in terms of being held
> accountable by an organized base, have the latitude to act as they please,
> and to succumb to the temptations of power.
>
> To be sustainable, I believe grassroots power cannot exist only on paper
> in a theoretical sense, the way ultimate power in the U.S. is nominally
> held by voters who could in theory make their evident dissatisfaction felt
> by voting every incumbent out of office on Nov. 8 (and yet we know they
> won't). Rather it must make itself felt in the day-to-day operations of the
> organization, in keeping with the axiom "Use it or lose it".
>
> Creating organizational structures and a party culture that will support
> and maintain an empowered grassroots that regularly flexes its muscles and
> does not permit the kind of gradual centralization of power that results in
> organizations growing more authoritarian to occur is difficult however,
> because
>
> (1) *Institutions naturally trend toward authoritarianism;* and
> (2) *To have a strong chance of keeping this trend in check, the danger
> must be guarded against while it is still largely imperceptible*
>
> By the time centralization of power has become widely recognizable enough
> to enflame public opinion in an organization against it, those near the
> center are likely to already have sufficient top-down power at their
> disposal to frustrate attempts at reform, with those in the grassroots too
> weak to assert their collective interests.
>
> When candidates fear their political party's libertarian purity, there is
> sustainable liberty; when members of a libertarian party instead fear that
> the statist tendencies of their candidates may go uncorrected, there is not.
>
> Love & Liberty,
>                                  ((( starchild )))
> At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>                               (415) 625-FREE
>                                 @StarchildSF
>
> *“There is no greater fallacy than the belief that aims and purposes are
> one thing, while methods and tactics are another.”*
>
> – *Emma Goldman* (1869-1940)
>
> On Oct 22, 2016, at 2:20 PM, Joshua Katz wrote:
>
> Why else would who sign it?  Why else would the voter sign it?  Dunno.  If
> the $10k is to be paid to them, that seems like a reason.  Why else would
> the candidate sign it?  Well, I have trouble believing that the candidate
> is interested in risking money to get one voter's support.
>
> If we add to the facts that the voter is agreeing to support the
> candidate, then I agree there's consideration, at least on the contract's
> own terms.  Actually demanding the performance from the voter would almost
> certainly be illegal, but if treated as a bilateral contract the legal
> portion might still be enforceable.
>
> Of the two options, the LNC option probably makes more sense, assuming the
> LNC promises to do something - it could be as small as promising not to
> attack the candidate.  I'd need more details before knowing if I'd agree
> with it or not.  I would oppose the example given - regardless of what I'd
> do, I am not interested in binding a candidate not to, for instance,
> increase sales tax by .01% in a deal that also eliminates the NSA, or
> something like that.
>
> Joshua A. Katz
> Westbrook CT Planning Commission (L in R seat)
>
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <
> carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why else would they sign it?  I believe that was implicit in Arvin's
>> scenario.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, October 22, 2016, Joshua Katz <planning4liberty at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Where does the hypo say the voter promises support?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joshua A. Katz
>>> Westbrook CT Planning Commission (L in R seat)
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <
>>> carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe the contact may be against public election policy if with the
>>>> voter, but there is consideration.  The voter promises support IF the
>>>> candidate follows the pledge.  Clear consideration.  But I think this would
>>>> violate some election law, it just doesn't pass the gut test.
>>>>
>>>> Now as between the candidate and the LNC, I think that might be a
>>>> different matter.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Joshua Katz <
>>>> planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I believe the contract is unenforceable for want of consideration.
>>>>> The voter does not have their future actions constrained in any way, and so
>>>>> suffers no detriment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joshua A. Katz
>>>>> Westbrook CT Planning Commission (L in R seat)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Arvin Vohra <votevohra at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few years ago, we started doing candidate pledges. We basically
>>>>>> based them off the Norquist tax pledge, but made them about cutting
>>>>>> government instead not just not growing it. Some include sponsoring
>>>>>> legislation to cut spending to 1998 levels to eliminate the income tax,
>>>>>> sponsoring legislation to cut military spending by 60 percent, sponsoring
>>>>>> legislation to repeal the Patriot act, etc. The pledges are obviously
>>>>>> voluntary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been considering advancing this from a pledge to a (voluntary)
>>>>>> contract. There are two versions I have considered so far:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. The contract would be signed by the candidate, with any voter able
>>>>>> to act as a cosigner. The voter would download a signed pdf, sign it, and
>>>>>> that would put the contract into effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. The contract would be between the candidate and the LNC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unlike the pledge, the contract would have clear, defined, monetary
>>>>>> penalties. As in: "The candidate will oppose any tax increase for any
>>>>>> purpose, unless it is accompanied by a larger simultaneous tax decrease, or
>>>>>> will pay $10,000." Or something along those lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking for legal and other input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Arvin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arvin Vohra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.VoteVohra.com
>>>>>> VoteVohra at gmail.com
>>>>>> (301) 320-3634
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Lnc-business mailing list
>>>>>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>>>>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Lnc-business mailing list
>>>>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>>>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> *In Liberty,*
>>>> *Caryn Ann Harlos*
>>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
>>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.
>>>> Harlos at LP.org
>>>> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>>> <http://www.lpcolorado.org/>
>>>> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus
>>>> <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Lnc-business mailing list
>>>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> *In Liberty,*
>> *Caryn Ann Harlos*
>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.
>> Harlos at LP.org
>> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
>> <http://www.lpcolorado.org/>
>> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus
>> <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lnc-business mailing list
>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
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>
>
>

-- 
*In Liberty,*
*Caryn Ann Harlos*
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona,
Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org>
Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
<http://www.lpcolorado.org>
Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus
<http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org>
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