[Lnc-business] [Lnc-votes] Email Ballot 2017-11: Military Members
Daniel Hayes
danielehayes at icloud.com
Sun May 21 00:28:44 EDT 2017
Bleh.. I said as per our bylaws and I meant as per our platform.
Daniel
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 20, 2017, at 11:12 PM, Trent Somes <tsomes3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As an alternate, I vote yes If Dr. Lark chooses not to vote.
>
>> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:52 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Starchild, I helped author this resolution. Everyone must interpret as they see fit but we are duty bound to interpret within the Accord framework of the SoP which allows for diversity of interpretation. You can't insist a minarchist make an anarchist interpretation. That is just as unjust as the converse under the Accord.
>>
>> -Caryn Ann
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:49 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Daniel, pet peeve. It is Accord singular not plural. Just like the Book of Revelation is not Revelations.
>>>
>>> -Caryn Ann
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:31 PM Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Daniel,
>>>>
>>>> If you as the maker of the motion will affirm that your use of the phrase in this context is not a reference to the U.S. government's military, but could include any military force or forces sufficient to defend the United States against aggression, that would go a long way toward allaying the concerns I expressed.
>>>>
>>>> Love & Liberty,
>>>>
>>>> ((( starchild )))
>>>> At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>>>> RealReform at earthilnk.net
>>>> (415) 625-FREE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 20, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Daniel Hayes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Starchild.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first Wheras clause is taken STRAIGHT from the platform. A plank that has existed in similar form dating back to the Dallas accords.
>>>>>
>>>>> "3.1 National Defense
>>>>> We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression. The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniel Hayes
>>>>> LNC At Large Member
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 20, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I do consider a military capacity to shoot down missiles and aircraft aimed at targets within the area known as the United States – e.g. a missile launch by the regime controlling the area known as North Korea – desirable. My strong preference however would be for such an air defense system to be independently maintained and voluntarily funded. Sadly, the chances of such an independent defense capacity existing at present or in the near future seems remote.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand, despite a U.S. government military budget of over half a trillion dollars per year (per https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Releases/News-Release-View/Article/652687/department-of-defense-dod-releases-fiscal-year-2017-presidents-budget-proposal/ ), the odds that the U.S. government is or will be able to protect against such threats exacerbated by its own policies also seem alarmingly slim to me (particularly alarming from the vantage point of living in a major city on the west coast), given their track record that includes failures such as being unable to scramble fighter jets in time to stop the 9/11 attacks – unless one assumes those attacks were an "inside job" or were deliberately allowed to take place, neither of which possibilities I rule out – or to stop a drunken government employee from crash-landing a drone on the White House lawn (see https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/us/white-house-drone.html ). Nor, for that matter, has the aforementioned military spending done anything that I'm aware of to protect citizens, residents, and others in the United States from the most serious armed threat facing them – the resolution, after all, refers broadly to "defend(ing) the United States against aggression", and does not specify any particular source(s) of that aggression. I would argue that both the worst current aggressor against the United States, and the entity that poses the greatest future threat of aggression, is the U.S. government itself!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For this reason, among others, the fact that the resolution appears to endorse a standing U.S. government military force is very troubling to me. I'm more inclined to agree with the American founders, who generally opposed such a standing army.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Explicit Libertarian Party support for the maintenance of such an institution, I should point out, would also be a violation of the Dallas Accord on keeping the party officially neutral between the anarchist and minarchist (limited government) positions and not specifying how much government we ideally want to see in existence, if any.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's worth pointing out however that endorsement of a government standing army isn't the only way the resolution can be interpreted – although I suspect that if we were to survey people on whether such language constitutes an endorsement of a standing government army, most respondents would say yes. Here are a couple other possible interpretations which I think are technically consistent with the wording, although probably not what the maker or sponsors had in mind:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> • Since people on the part of Earth's surface commonly known as "the United States" could be defended against aggression via a non-aggressive foreign policy, a large and active libertarian movement, and a well-armed populace, the amount of military sufficient to defend the United States against aggression is zero, and thus that is (implicitly) the amount that we would be supporting if we pass the motion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> • The resolution's mention of "sufficient military to defend the United States" refers to non-government military forces such as independent militias, not to the U.S. government's military
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mention these possible anarchist interpretations only for the record, not because I believe they are weighty enough to make the resolution acceptable as written. Given the considerations noted above, I must oppose the motion as written and accordingly vote no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the positive side however, it is only the wording of the first "Whereas" clause that appears particularly problematic to me. The rest of the resolution, while not ideal in my view, seems palatable under the circumstances, and if that first clause, or at least the words "support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression and" can be dropped, then I would be inclined to support it unless someone else manages to point out reasons I would consider strong enough to warrant abstention.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love & Liberty,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ((( starchild )))
>>>>>> At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>>>>>> RealReform at earthlink.net
>>>>>> (415) 625-FREE
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 20, 2017, at 1:01 AM, lnc-votes at hq.lp.org wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have an electronic mail ballot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by May 30, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sponsor: Hayes, Hewitt, Hagan, Mattson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Motion:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression and believe that the United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as policeman for the world;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, We oppose any form of compulsory national service and recognize that many members of the military
>>>>>>> were unjustly conscripted in the past;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, Most voluntary members of the military joined with the idea and/or goal of defending the United States
>>>>>>> and, thereby, their property, families, and friends;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, The United States Military-Industrial-Complex has used many well-meaning military service members for
>>>>>>> purposes other than defense against aggression and further involved them in foreign entanglements during attempts
>>>>>>> to act as the world’s policeman; and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whereas, Many current and former military service members are able to relate, identify, and speak out on the ways
>>>>>>> in which the United States military mission has been expanded and corrupted beyond a legitimate role of defense
>>>>>>> against aggression; now, therefore, be it;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Resolved, Present and former members of the military who give such unique and powerful voice to the libertarian
>>>>>>> principles of peace and the non-initiation of force add great value to the Libertarian Party, and are welcomed as a
>>>>>>> vital part of our membership.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Alicia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> In Liberty,
>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>>> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>>
>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>>> We defend your rights
>>> And oppose the use of force
>>> Taxation is theft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> In Liberty,
>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
>> Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus
>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>
>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>> We defend your rights
>> And oppose the use of force
>> Taxation is theft
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Trent Somes, III
> Region 5 Alternate, Libertarian National Committee
> Founder, Westmoreland County Libertarians
> National Chair, Libertarian Youth Caucus
> Facebook Twitter Instagram Address
> Cell: (412) 496 - 8552 Home: (412) 646 - 1872
>
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