[Lnc-business] Bylaws Committee Veil of Secrecy.

Mon May 22 22:00:04 EDT 2017

Starchild, thank you!

Obviously, I cannot comment on many of the particulars of your response. In the interests of transparency, however, I think and hope it is okay to say that I am for full transparency, noting Joshua’s comment that the need for executive sessions is unlikely. I also think and hope it is okay to say that Joshua is doing an excellent job as committee chair and all committee members are actively engaged and working very hard. We truly have some experts that are helping me as a newcomer learn the ropes and contribute to the productivity of our thoughtful deliberations. I look forward to getting into the meat of our bylaws considerations.

Robert, Wes: I request that my following contact information be provided in the appropriate locations relevant to the LNC and the ASC and Bylaws & Rules committees. Apologies for my oversight in not taking care of this sooner. No excuse, but the LNC does keep me hopping and rarely a dull moment!!! It is exciting to be part of a dynamic LNC body proper and productive LNC committees, two of which I am privileged and honored to serve on. :)

*	Business hours (if appropriate information - 9:00-6:00 Central): 402-981-6469, dprattdemarest at gmail.com <mailto:dprattdemarest at gmail.com> 

*	Home: 402-493-0873, dpdemarest at centurylink.net

Thoughts?

~David

Dec 28-Jan 1 Omaha Roads to Liberty Un-Convention

~David Pratt Demarest

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

Secretary, LPNE State Central Committee

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 8:13 PM
To: Libertarian National Committee list <lnc-business at hq.lp.org>
Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Bylaws Committee Veil of Secrecy.

Thank you Starchild.  I requested my email and phone number be put down, and I would like it put down for Bylaws as well.  

And I understand that only the LNC can remove a Bylaws Committee member, but I don't want to even go down the road of that discussion... I just really want to know what my rights are.

Here is the thing.  It is a great committee.  It isn't like there is some burning controversy that I am just waiting to "reveal." Everything is fine.  But the fact is we do not know what the future holds, and having the discussions public prevents me or anyone else from mis-casting or reframing the argument, which often happens inadvertently.  I understand the majority of the committee wants the emails to be closed, but I don't think a committee can require more than its authority, and I hold to the parliamentary system, but I don't think the committee can tell me what I can share anymore than it can tell me I can't have pink hair unless we are in executive session.

-Caryn Ann

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 6:59 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net <mailto:sfdreamer at earthlink.net> > wrote:

Caryn Ann,

I appreciate you, Daniel, and David speaking out about this. It's true I have not hijacked Daniel's computer, but his remarks here are spot-on! If the Bylaws Committee can't clean up its act and get it done as a committee, what you say here about not being prohibited from sharing would be my interpretation as well. And I believe only the LNC can remove a member of the Bylaws Committee. If it came to that, I think LNC members would be more inclined to exercise such an option to remove a member or members whose behavior contravenes the LNC's own transparency standards than one who is trying to uphold similar practices of openness for the benefit of our members.

Here is the list of who's on the Bylaws Committee [presumably Joshua Katz is the chair, since his name is boldfaced, although the LP Committees web page ( https://www.lp.org/lp-committees/ ) does not make this clear]. 

*	M Carling
*	Andy Craig
*	Dave Demarest
*	Caryn Ann Harlos
*	Joseph Henchman
*	Joshua Katz
*	Alicia Mattson
*	Chuck Moulton
*	Kimberly Ruff
*	Aaron Starr

On the Bylaws Committee, I expect from past experience that Alicia Mattson and Aaron Starr are among those seeking to enforce secrecy. Along with you and David, I expect Kimberly Ruff and Chuck Moulton are for transparency. If there is a pro-secrecy majority on Bylaws that's doing things like going into secret meetings without a vote and trying to make people like yourself think they can't freely share information outside the committee, the obvious question is, who else is going along with the Mattson/Starr agenda to keep the committee's workings hidden? For them to have a majority, it would have to be at least three of the remaining four members: Joshua Katz, M Carling, Andy Craig, and Joseph Henchman. Katz is of course on this LNC list, and I've copied Carling on this email, but I do not have addresses for Henchman or Craig.

By the way, I also want to congratulate you for being the only committee member on the entire LP Committees page whose contact info is listed (next to your name as Historical Preservation Committee chair)! Who is responsible for updating that page – Robert, Wes? Can we get contact info for the rest of the committee members added ASAP? As a Libertarian Party leader and member, I would like to find out whether these members are committed to upholding transparency, but I have not been provided any means of contacting them.

Love & Liberty,

                                   ((( starchild )))

At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee

                         RealReform at earthlink.net <mailto:RealReform at earthlink.net> 

                                (415) 625-FREE

                                  @StarchildSF

On May 22, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

So it seems to me that I can forward all the emails to my own reflector list if I wished?  Or anyone else on the committee could?  That the committee cannot prohibit that?

Further, we spring from the parent organization - I don't see how members can be prohibited from something the parent organization does.

-Caryn Ann

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 5:36 PM Daniel Hayes <danielehayes at icloud.com <mailto:danielehayes at icloud.com> > wrote:

>From pages 500-501.  Of RONR 11th Ed.
"Committees of organized societies operate under the bylaws, the parliamentary authority, and any special rules of order or standing rules of the society which may be applicable to them. A committee may not adopt its own rules except as authorized in the rules of the society or in instructions given to the committee by its parent assembly in a particular case. If a standing or special committee is so large that it can function best in the manner of a full-scale assembly, it should be instructed that the informalities and modifications of the regular rules of parliamentary procedure listed for small boards on pages 487–88 are not to apply to its proceedings. 
When a committee is to make substantive recommendations or decisions on an important matter, it should give members of the society an opportunity to appear before it and present their views on the subject at a time scheduled by the committee. Such a meeting is usually called a hearing. During actual deliberations of the committee, only committee members have the right to be present. "

So Caryn Ann,

Unless I am missing something in our rules somewhere else, the LNC Bylaws committee does not have the authority to create rules of order on its own.

If this secrecy is just how this has always been done regarding our bylaws committee I would point you to page 19 of RONR 11th ed. It covers custom.  When a point of order is raised custom falls to the floor.

Daniel Hayes

LNC At Large Member

On May 22, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com <mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com> > wrote:

And to be clear as well, if the committee does not want to have an automatical read-only list like this one, under what authority can any individual member be prevented from copying any or all emails and posting them on a list themselves?

This is Party business not personal love letters.

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:24 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:

And at the risk of speaking for Ms. Ruff (who follows this list due to our transparency), I think she is equally unclear.

-Caryn Ann

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com <mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com> > wrote:

See David demonstrates exactly what the problem is.... neither of us know what we can say and it is like walking on eggshells.  Our rights and duties should be clearly spelled out.

-Caryn Ann

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:20 PM, David Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com <mailto:dprattdemarest at gmail.com> > wrote:

Daniel, likewise on the Nebraska Unicameral. The Judiciary Committee chaired by Laura Ebke is wide open to the public as are all Unicameral committees that I am aware. I may have heard that they can optionally use executive sessions for votes which sounds dubious to me but I will check with Laura. I am not sure if and why the fact that we are a party not a legislature should make a difference.

Darned if I know how to answer Whitney's question at this point without risk of impropriety until our transparency rules are defined but I do have serious concerns with the direction this is going and the possible justifications for lack of transparency. Perhaps a minority report will shed some light.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how the two major parties handle transparency on their Bylaws & Rules committees. I would hope that we compare favorably on the side of transparency.

Thoughts?

On May 22, 2017 3:45 PM, <danielehayes at icloud.com <mailto:danielehayes at icloud.com> > wrote:

All, and especially Mr. Katz in his role as chairman of the Bylaws Committee,

It has come to my attention and my brain momentarily allotted enough bandwidth to really think about this.  Under what authority are our bylaws meetings secret?  (No, Starchild has not hijacked my computer).  Specifically Ms. Harlos is acting like she just joined Fight Club.  Ms. 1000 Emails being mostly clammed shut.  I am worried she might end up like the kid from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory movie that got the experimental candy.

These are all the reasons for going into executive session in our rules with a majority vote.
• Legal matters (potential, pending, or past) 

• Regulatory and compliance matters (potential, pending, or past) 

• Contractual compliance 

• Personnel matters (including evaluation, compensation, hiring, or dismissal) 

• Board self-evaluation 

• Strategic issues (only those requiring confidentiality) 

• Negotiations (potential, pending, or past) 
Other topics require a two-thirds vote of LNC.
No action can be taken while in Executive Session.
Discussion of action which may be taken in Open Session can occur.

The reasons for going into Executive session are supposed to be listed if a vote was taken.

But when I ask about the vote to go into executive session I am told that there was no vote.

I realize that we have rules all over the place and I might be missing something, hence I am asking, Why?

Someone enlighten me as to what’s up before I slam big brown(11th ed.) on down.

How is this remotely in line with what this organization stands for?
I would flip a gasket if the Louisiana Legislature was operating in this manner.   This wouldn’t pass muster under Sunshine Laws for government.  Let that sink in.

Daniel Hayes
LNC At Large Member

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

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-- 

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org <mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> 

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org/> 

Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/>  

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

-- 

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org <mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> 

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org/> 

Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/>  

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

-- 

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org <mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> 

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org/> 

Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org/>  

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

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-- 

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org <mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> 

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> 

Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org>  

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

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