[Lnc-business] FYI

erin.adams at lp.org erin.adams at lp.org
Thu Jan 18 12:28:12 EST 2018

I agree with Mr. Hayes on this. I have been relatively silent throughout 
this "ordeal" all the while sitting in consideration of all "sides". At 
this point,enough is enough.

On 2018-01-18 11:20, Daniel Hayes wrote:
> Arvin,
>    I have been a staunch “NO” on your removal.  It was not because I 
> think
>    there should be no government involvement in age of consent because 
> I
>    do think there needs to be some line in the sand on that issue.  My
>    strong reluctance has been because it potentially chills the speech 
> of
>    this board’s members which should be somewhat bold advocating for
>    Liberty.  It’s never a good outcome when members of a board vote to
>    remove their peers.  We don’t want our governance of the 
> organization
>    between conventions to be a circular firing squad. We also don’t 
> want
>    to encourage overall members to know that if they exaggerate and
>    mischaracterize what someone they don’t agree with says and then 
> jump
>    up and down enough, they can have them removed. Then there is the 
> fact
>    that I personally like you.
>    All of that said, you just don’t recognize that we are a POLITICAL
>    PARTY.  This is not about finding the exact right philosophical
>    argument.  We are also dealing with people’s emotions here.   You 
> are
>    still arguing the academic point. This is not about that.  It’s
>    ultimately about your lack of empathy to others on this board, 
> others
>    running for office, and others in the Party and others that have 
> been
>    victims of child sexual abuse.   You say families and culture should
>    stop it.   The sad reality is it is usually a family member that is 
> the
>    abuser or a trusted friend of the family or a trusted cultural 
> member
>    of their community like a church leader.  That is why we need SOME 
> law
>    that makes a line in the sand.  Then we need to be more diligent as 
> a
>    society and make greater use of jury nullification when the law is
>    abused as well as hold legislators to task.  That said this is a
>    sensitive issue and you just don’t show any sensitivity.
>    It is your latest attempt to sway minds on the LNC that has swayed 
> mine
>    with this sentence.
>     “But as I consider the actions of the aforementioned great minds, I
>    believe that I have been, perhaps, too timid.”
>    This says to me that over the next 5 month you are only going to
>    ratchet up your rhetoric.  It is with great sadness that I must
>    consider myself as a “YES” on any vote for your removal.
>    Daniel Hayes LNC At Large Member
>    Sent from my iPhone
>    On Jan 18, 2018, at 10:26 AM, Arvin Vohra <[1]votevohra at gmail.com>
>    wrote:
>      A bit more information for consideration before the upcoming
>    electronic
>      meeting. This is taken from my facebook page:
>      Over the last few days, I've heard from many people about 
> different
>      Libertarian theories of age of consent, both online and offline. I
>    have
>      become convinced that a law that I previously considered sort of
>    silly
>      is far more deeply flawed than I realized.
>      The issue with current laws is that it tries to set the age of
>    consent
>      as "the age past which sexual manipulation is impossible, or
>    extremely
>      unlikely." This is a fools errand. There is no such age.
>      Biologically, the prefrontal cortex continues developing until 
> around
>      age 25. However, the prefrontal cortex of some 25 year olds will
>      obviously be inferior to that of other 16 year olds.
>      But the physical development of the prefrontal cortex doesn't tell
>    the
>      whole story. 40 year olds, because of their life experience, may 
> have
>      more impulse control than 25 year olds, as well as more ability to
>      manipulate. Some people are, through genetics or practice, easily
>    able
>      to manipulate people their own age or older.
>      And some people don't. Even the hardcore statists haven't gone so 
> far
>      as to argue that 100% of sex between teenagers and adults is
>      problematic, that at no point in history was that beneficial. Some
>    have
>      even discussed the lasting marriages of their own grandparents 
> (and
>      occasionally parents).
>      Many supposed anarchists have gone running to statism, like the
>    "brave"
>      kids who run and hide behind mommy at the first sign of, well,
>      anything.
>      There are other models worth considering. The first is the German
>      model. Yes, I know it's still statism, but it can inform anarchist
>    and
>      minarchist thought. In Germany, the age of consent is set low, at 
> 14.
>      However, if there is an age gap, and the younger person feels as 
> if
>    he
>      or she has been exploited, manipulated, etc., that person can 
> press
>      charges. This enables positive romance, and puts a bar on
>    manipulation.
>      It puts the burden of responsibility on the older person, which is
>      where it should be. American law, on the other hand, basically say 
> to
>    a
>      younger person who feels exploited, but was of age, "Well you said
>    yes,
>      sucks to be you LOL!!!"
>      Murray Rothbard discussed "homesteading", which has some 
> application.
>      Once a person at any age has set himself up independent of his
>    parents,
>      has a job/business, residence, etc., he or she is free to make his
>    own
>      decisions about everything.
>      Some objectivists have similarly argued that when a person can 
> take
>    on
>      the responsibilities of adulthood, they have the right to make 
> their
>      own decisions. I like that idea. I would extend it by saying that
>    those
>      who cannot take on those responsibilities don't have those rights.
>      Those who have kids they cannot afford, and then have 15 more they
>      cannot afford, are violating that. I don't think the state should 
> be
>      involved. I also don't think the state should subsidize that 
> behavior
>      through welfare, as it has been doing for decades (and yes, 
> welfare
>      does include government schools).
>      I've also learned about the history of those who have spoke out
>    against
>      these laws, particularly in Europe. I was surprised to see people
>    like
>      legendary feminist Simone de Beauvoir and philosopher Jean Paul
>    Sartre
>      sign a petition demanding the release of three men who had been
>    jailed
>      for violating age of consent laws...way back in the ancient times 
> of
>      1977. These were intellectual giants with big ideas, people of
>    incisive
>      thought and massive reach. Some may have been statists too, but I
>      frankly am more in awe of statists with big minds and bid ideas 
> than
>      with small minded libertarians with minor-league ideas. Were those
>      giants loved and hated? Sure. Were they influential? I'd say so.
>      Let's not let the fact that we are a smaller movement make us 
> small
>      minded. Let's not be afraid to challenge the big, sacred ideas. 
> Not
>      just point out areas where they give absurd results, but challenge
>      their very fundamental underpinnings.
>      In a few days, there will be a meeting to consider removing me 
> from
>    the
>      LNC for bringing this issue up not nicely enough. But as I 
> consider
>    the
>      actions of the aforementioned great minds, I believe that I have
>    been,
>      perhaps, too timid.
>      Respectfully,
>      [1]Arvin Vohra
>      --
>      Arvin Vohra
>      [2][2]www.VoteVohra.com
>      [3][3]VoteVohra at gmail.com
>      (301) 320-3634
>    References
>      1. [4]https://www.facebook.com/VohraEducation/?fref=mentions
>      2. [5]http://www.VoteVohra.com/
>      3. [6]mailto:VoteVohra at gmail.com
>    _______________________________________________
>    Lnc-business mailing list
>    [7]Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>    [8]http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
> References
>    1. mailto:votevohra at gmail.com
>    2. http://www.VoteVohra.com/
>    3. mailto:VoteVohra at gmail.com
>    4. https://www.facebook.com/VohraEducation/?fref=mentions
>    5. http://www.VoteVohra.com/
>    6. mailto:VoteVohra at gmail.com
>    7. mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>    8. http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
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