[Lnc-business] Age of Consent and Statutory Rape. WTF.
Starchild
starchild at lp.org
Sun Jan 14 09:07:58 EST 2018
Caryn Ann,
There's a huge difference between leaving open the possibility that one might do something in a non-specific hypothetical scenario, and actually doing it. Not to mention, Roy Moore stands credibly accused of committing sexual assault against young teens, i.e. acting in a manner that was clearly non-consensual even if you believe that someone that age is capable of consent.
And in what relationship is there not a power differential of some kind, i.e. when is there ever no possibility of power coercion?
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
RealReform at earthlink.net
(415) 625-FREE
On Jan 13, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
> Also, if we say, nah, nothing wrong with our vice chair saying he PROBABLY would not have sex with a fourteen year old (with no qualification - I would hope it is obvious that today the RULE is that 14 year olds are not proper romantic interests for grown men - the theoretical fully competent individual in a 14 year old body with no possibility of power coercion is fantasy akin to me winning the lottery), then when will we issue an apology to Roy Moore?
>
> https://www.lp.org/sane-alternative-roy-moore-libertarian-ron-bishop-senate/
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 9:12 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> I believe recall is an unalienable right of any voting body, Bylaws or not, if not explicitly and knowingly waived.
>
> -Caryn Ann
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 9:10 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> I also want to correct something, I said 3/4 earlier when I meant 2/3. Got my fractions mixed up in my head.
>
> I have one state, Arizona, that asked to be left out of the decision and not be counted against any numbers needed due to the state chair being on the judicial committee and thus a conflict of issue, also with one of the main protoganists being in AZ, he felt it was better for the rest of the region to examine. It doesn't change my numbers, it is still six votes needed.
>
> Or 2/3 of the region 1 delegates at last convention.
>
> I want to be perfectly clear - my anger and call for resignation has nothing to do with whether or not we should question age of consent laws. That has been an acceptable party position for decades. I don't support them. The issue is consent, not age, though the two are very very related, but an individualistic system requires people to be treated as such. That is not the issue. The issue is his lack of judgment, accountability, and recklessness which to me, have disqualified him IF that is what the members want. It is more than enough cause.
>
> We have lost our minds if we don't see the issue here. If principles mean we lose all of our sense and waste and piss away volunteer efforts and money, we should just give up now.
>
> -Caryn Ann
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> Not directly but indirectly and it makes a certain justice sense.
>
> The indirect precedent is when there were issues in AZ and disaffiliation occured - the national party members in that state were asked which group they prefer the national party to affiliate with. That is a decision that belonged to the LNC but they asked the members.
>
> Also indirectly we have other things in our bylaws that are appealable by a certain number of delegates who went to last convention. Making that the same target audience preserves member voices and give the option to recall.
>
> The members can appeal bad resolutions, how can they not appeal terrible behaviour by their elected representatives?
>
> I am now considering a bylaws amendment because this honestly is binding the rights of members IMHO.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 7:01 PM, Whitney Bilyeu <whitneycb76 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Recall survey sounds interesting. Is there a precedent?
>
> Whitney
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2018 4:42 PM, "Caryn Ann Harlos" <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> 9 states makes it really hard and I expect the same time issues.
>
> If Patrick or anyone intends on any motion I submit it is a futile gesture until regional states have time.
>
> BTW I know I have a minority opinion on this interpretation but I think the provision that allows 10% of the delegates of prior convention to appeal any LNC action includes any lack of action and I would encourage it.
>
> I would ideally like to see a recall survey sent to the 2016 delegates.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 2:07 PM Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
> Yes, and as there's exactly four states in Region 3, it's a little easier, but still not easy. (Also, thanks, btw)
>
> Just got an update from LPMI, and their bylaws prevent an email vote (asynchronous voting). They would need to meet in person or have a conference call to pass a resolution. Their next scheduled meeting is is in February. (I have heard privately from some officers in LPMI, and they're very unhappy with the Arvin situation and would like to be able to take action.)
>
> Still no word from LPKY.
>
> All over social media is arguing and strife over this mess. Some are seizing this situation to grandstand and pot stir, furthering the reach. This is the situation. Not a pleasant one.
>
> ---
> Elizabeth Van Horn
> LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
> Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
> Chair-LP Social Media Process Review Committee
> Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
> http://www.lpcaucus.org/
>
>
> On 2018-01-13 14:55, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
>
>> PS my requirements are similar
>>
>> 3/4 of Region 1 Chairs
>>
>> or
>>
>> 3/4 petition by region 1 delegates from 2016
>>
>> -Caryn Ann
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 12:47 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>> Elizabeth kudos for doing what a regional should.
>>
>> I am having a similar discussion with Region 1.
>>
>> They opposed action before.
>>
>> -Caryn Ann
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 12:21 PM Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
>> Hello Patrick,
>>
>> As you're aware, I'm fairly new on the Libertarian National Committee, as I was appointed to be LNC Region 3 Representative, a little over a month ago. It's an honor to be given their trust in representing LP-Indiana, LP-Ohio, LP-Michigan and LP-Kentucky on the LNC. I take my "representative" role seriously, and the LP state affiliates within my Region are my constituency.
>>
>> 1) On November 11, 2017, the Libertarian Party of Indiana (LPIN) State Central Committee (SCC) unanimously passed a resolution which culminated in, "...the immediate resignation of Mr. Vohra from his position in party leadership."
>>
>> On Friday, January 12, 2018, the Indiana state chair wrote to me, "Indiana does support and request that very action", regarding Bylaws Article 6.7, a motion to suspend Arvin Vohra.
>>
>> 2) On January 12, 2018 the Libertarian Party of Ohio (LPOH) Executive Committee passed a resolution which culminated in, "The LPO calls for the IMMEDIATE resignation of Mr. Vohra from his positions in party leadership. Failing that, the LPO calls on the LNC to remove (through the formal suspension process) Mr. Vohra before more damage can be done."
>>
>> 3) I've informed the state chairs of Region 3 that I'd need a clear directive to make a motion per bylaws article 6.7 regarding suspending Arvin Vohra. (With the understanding that the motion might not get to a vote, or pass, if voted upon.) Two of the four state affiliates in Region 3 have told me they want this action taken. Since attempting to suspend an officer of the LP is a serious matter, I told the state chairs in Region 3 that I'd need at least 3 of the four states to agree on the action to be taken. At this time, I await direction from LPMI and/or LPKY. (LPMI has taken the issue into discussion and hopefully will let me know their decision soon.)
>>
>> This is why I've not made public comments regarding the controversy surrounding Arvin Vohra. I represent the four states in Region 3, which means it's not my place to direct them, but it's the reverse, they direct me. If the consensus of Region 3 is to make a motion to the LNC, I shall do so. If that happens, it will be another opportunity for anyone on the LNC to second such a motion.
>>
>> ---
>> Elizabeth Van Horn
>> LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
>> Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
>> Chair-LP Social Media Process Review Committee
>> Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
>> http://www.lpcaucus.org/
>>
>>
>> On 2018-01-13 09:46, Patrick McKnight wrote:
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> Thank you for your hard work on behalf of the party and your thoughtful comments on this latest embarrassment to our organization. As you know, I made a motion to remove Arvin last year. Unfortunately, not one member of the LNC felt comfortable supporting my motion at the time. I hope that changes now.
>>
>> Patrick McKnight
>> LNC Region 8 Rep
>> Chair, New Jersey Libertarian Party
>>
>>
>>
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