[Lnc-business] Latest Libertarian Bruhaha

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

That is the nature of politics.  He could have ignored it.  He could have
called it out for a trap.

You are one of the smartest people I know Starchild - it is an abysmal
failure of judgment for an educator of all people to not be able to handle
that question in a way that didn't give clear ammo.

-Caryn Ann

On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Starchild <starchild at lp.org> wrote:

>
> I will not make excuses for the inappropriate question.
>
> Love & Liberty,
>
>                                     ((( starchild )))
> At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>                          RealReform at earthlink.net
>                                   (415) 625-FREE
>
>
> On Jan 14, 2018, at 4:50 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
>
> That is political reality.  I will not make excuses for his reckless
> answer.
>
> On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 5:52 PM, Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> What I'm wondering is, why was Arvin even asked that question? How is his
>> response to such a hypothetical even relevant to his or anyone else's
>> social media outreach? What purpose did it serve, other than to try to
>> create a "Gotcha!" moment that could be used politically? If anything, the
>> fact of someone asking him this bothers me more than his response does. If
>> he'd said "None of your business", would you have considered that an
>> acceptable response Michelle?
>>
>> Love & Liberty,
>>
>>                                     ((( starchild )))
>> At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>>                          RealReform at earthlink.net
>>                                   (415) 625-FREE
>>
>>
>> On Jan 14, 2018, at 9:32 AM, Michelle MacCutcheon wrote:
>>
>> David,
>>
>> It's not about not scaring voters, volunteers, etc. though there will be
>> extra fallout from this.
>>
>> It's about him personally saying "probably not" with regards to sex with
>> a 14 year old as an adult of what 30?  This is reprehensible.
>>
>> That is fact and I fail to see how you don't see that.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Michelle MacCutcheon
>> michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com 513.292.6380 <(513)%20292-6380>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 11:36 AM, David Demarest <
>> dprattdemarest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Michelle,
>>>
>>> You again make it explicit that this hubbub is really about avoiding
>>> scaring voters to get elected, but at the expense of being honest about
>>> principles, the real point that Arvin has made. We are both concerned about
>>> losing leaders. You are concerned about losing voters. I am concerned about
>>> losing our moral compass and becoming amoral jackasses just like the
>>> Republican and Democratic parties that we are supposed to be fighting
>>> against.
>>>
>>> A political party that is strictly focused on getting people elected is
>>> a party without a moral compass and a danger to all of us and our way of
>>> life and just a another clone of the two disgusting major parties.
>>>
>>> If the LP continues on the path exemplified by this motion, you may gain
>>> some undesirable politicos, but lose the type of moral leaders that created
>>> the Libertarian Party in the first place, without which we would not be
>>> having this conversation and those suffering from pandemic electivitis
>>> would have little chance to pursue opportunistic politically-motivated
>>> electoral adventurism.
>>>
>>> Michelle, thank you for speaking up. Now, back it up with rational but
>>> compassionate due diligence.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> ~David Pratt Demarest
>>>
>>> On Jan 14, 2018 9:52 AM, "Michelle MacCutcheon" <
>>> michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David,
>>>>
>>>> I stayed mostly silent on all the provocateur stuff from Arvin Vohra
>>>> despite the fact that I was literally the only one in my whole state in
>>>> Field Development leadership at the time (Membership coordinator with no
>>>> Director or Deputy of Field Development or Volunteer coordinator) despite
>>>> me loosing many new recruits that were going into leadership (veterans).
>>>>
>>>> Arvin Vohra stated that he would "probably not" when questioned if he
>>>> personally would have sex with a 14 year old.  This is not okay in any
>>>> manner and is harming recruiting efforts when we are nearing completion on
>>>> our ballot access drive in Ohio. This is quite literally going to harm our
>>>> candidates and recruiting efforts for membership that he seems to condone
>>>> hebophelia(sp?). It is having a direct and negative effect on what  do
>>>> every day for the party.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Michelle MacCutcheon
>>>> michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com 513.292.6380 <(513)%20292-6380>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 6:59 PM, David Demarest <
>>>> dpdemarest at centurylink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Caryn Ann, that is to your credit. Even if we disagree on this issue,
>>>>> I admire your honesty. Many of the contributors to this discussion could
>>>>> learn from your determination to stick to your principles after careful
>>>>> rational analysis. That will be the saving grace of the Libertarian
>>>>> movement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
>>>>> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt Demarest
>>>>>
>>>>> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>>>>>
>>>>> LSLA Vice-Chair
>>>>>
>>>>> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>>>>>
>>>>> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at LP.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Secretary at LPNE.org
>>>>>
>>>>> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>>>>>
>>>>> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Cell:      402-981-6469 <(402)%20981-6469>
>>>>>
>>>>> Home: 402-493-0873 <(402)%20493-0873>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org]
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 5:48 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:* David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
>>>>> *Cc:* Aaron Starr <aaron.starr at lp.org>; Alicia Mattson <
>>>>> alicia.mattson at lp.org>; Arvin Vohra <arvin.vohra at lp.org>; Daniel
>>>>> Hayes <daniel.hayes at lp.org>; David Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com>;
>>>>> Dustin Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>; Ed Marsh <ed.marsh at lp.org>;
>>>>> Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>; Erin Adams <
>>>>> erin.adams at lp.org>; George Syroney <georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>;
>>>>> Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>; James Lark <james.lark at lp.org>;
>>>>> Jeffrey Hewitt <jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>; Joshua Katz <
>>>>> joshua.katz at lp.org>; Larry Sharpe <larry.sharpe at lp.org>; Michelle
>>>>> MacCutcheon <michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>; Nicholas Sarwark <
>>>>> chair at lp.org>; Patrick McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>; Sam
>>>>> Goldstein <sam.goldstein at lp.org>; Sean OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>;
>>>>> Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net>; Steven Nekhaila <
>>>>> steven.nekhaila at lp.org>; Steven Nielson <steven.nielson at lp.org>; Tim
>>>>> Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>; Trent Somes <trent.somes at lp.org>; Whitney
>>>>> Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>; William Redpath <
>>>>> william.redpath at lp.org>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That we will.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To parallel your thoughts, I don’t allow the fact that there are
>>>>> vitriolic opportunistic critics to give me an out to the fact that there is
>>>>> legitimate concern.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Frankly Arvin has taken cover under that too many times and I may be
>>>>> slow too see it and give benefit of the doubt but once seen it cannot be
>>>>> unseen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My conscience is to vote yes at this time.  However my promise to my
>>>>> Region was to represent them unless it violated my principles.  I would not
>>>>> vote no at this time but rather abstain if my region didn’t want a yes.  I
>>>>> could change my mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But nothing - certainly not Arvin’s behavior- is persuading me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And this is costing me.  Some have decided I am a faux radical and
>>>>> anarchist.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When I campaigned I said my views cross factional lines.  That results
>>>>> in everyone being irked at something but I sleep like a baby.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Caryn Ann
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 4:32 PM David Demarest <
>>>>> dpdemarest at centurylink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Caryn Ann,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We will have to agree to disagree about the objective value of Arvin’s
>>>>> comments. That is not surprising and healthy among principled Libertarians.
>>>>> Contrary to some that are operating on hearsay, I have read and carefully
>>>>> analyzed much of Arvin’s comments. He has courageously identified several
>>>>> government-imposed moral dilemmas that many Libertarians are not handling
>>>>> appropriately because we would starve if we dealt with them in one fell
>>>>> swoop. Arvin has done the hard work of rational analysis and expressed
>>>>> himself passionately on his rational conclusions. The are many more
>>>>> important government-imposed moral dilemmas that have not been addressed
>>>>> yet that we Libertarians need to face up to even if we must play with the
>>>>> cards dealt to us today and make personal adjustments incrementally.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of the irrational garbage messages I have seen so far by most
>>>>> contributors to this discussion represent passionate expressions with
>>>>> little or no rational basis and, even more concerning, the blatant refusal
>>>>> to base their arguments on a sound rational footing. To be blunt, I would
>>>>> tell those irrational lynch-mob ‘activists’ to get off their intellectual
>>>>> backsides and do the hard rational-analysis work that Arvin has done. Then
>>>>> we will be in a better position to have serious discussions and get on with
>>>>> the Libertarian movement agenda. The current vitriolic level of irrational
>>>>> discussion is unacceptable and poorly represents Libertarian values and
>>>>> principles. Give outsiders the credit they deserve. They may not agree with
>>>>> some of our rational principles because they do not understand them yet.
>>>>> However, they can smell political-correctness misrepresentations of
>>>>> conscience a mile away and will not be impressed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I will listen carefully to any serious and thoughtful input from
>>>>> Region 6 Libertarian activists and beyond. The bulk of the shrill responses
>>>>> I have seen so far are disappointing but there have been some less-noticed
>>>>> exceptions. However, I will always, always vote my conscience regardless of
>>>>> any risk of political capital. I will never cave in to the temptation to
>>>>> conserve political capital at the expense my conscience. I could care less
>>>>> about reaping political capital rewards and have accordingly
>>>>> self-term-limited myself to one term as Region 6 Representative to make
>>>>> room for fresh voices that will hopefully always vote the dictates of their
>>>>> conscience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have zero respect for those who do not vote their conscience and the
>>>>> same goes for those who favor filling the tank with gas and putting the
>>>>> pedal to the metal with no thought to a moral-compass steering wheel. That
>>>>> will get them somewhere in a hurry but is it really where they want to go?
>>>>> I thought that a moral-compass ‘steering wheel’ was what we Libertarians
>>>>> were fighting for. Lynch-mob Libertarians need to look themselves in the
>>>>> eye and do some serious soul-searching on how they are going to
>>>>> differentiate themselves from the duopoly opposition that has no moral
>>>>> compass.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully, we are ready to stop wallowing in this disgusting bandwagon
>>>>> political-correctness quicksand and move on to more appropriate Libertarian
>>>>> initiatives, including addressing some of the legitimate issues that Arvin
>>>>> has raised.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
>>>>> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt Demarest
>>>>>
>>>>> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>>>>>
>>>>> LSLA Vice-Chair
>>>>>
>>>>> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>>>>>
>>>>> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at LP.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Secretary at LPNE.org
>>>>>
>>>>> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>>>>>
>>>>> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Cell:      402-981-6469 <(402)%20981-6469>
>>>>>
>>>>> Home: 402-493-0873 <(402)%20493-0873>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org]
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 4:25 PM
>>>>> *To:* David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
>>>>> *Cc:* Aaron Starr <aaron.starr at lp.org>; Alicia Mattson <
>>>>> alicia.mattson at lp.org>; Arvin Vohra <arvin.vohra at lp.org>; Daniel
>>>>> Hayes <daniel.hayes at lp.org>; David Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com>;
>>>>> Dustin Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>; Ed Marsh <ed.marsh at lp.org>;
>>>>> Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>; Erin Adams <
>>>>> erin.adams at lp.org>; George Syroney <georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>;
>>>>> Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>; James Lark <james.lark at lp.org>;
>>>>> Jeffrey Hewitt <jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>; Joshua Katz <
>>>>> joshua.katz at lp.org>; Larry Sharpe <larry.sharpe at lp.org>; Michelle
>>>>> MacCutcheon <michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>; Nicholas Sarwark <
>>>>> chair at lp.org>; Patrick McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>; Sam
>>>>> Goldstein <sam.goldstein at lp.org>; Sean OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>;
>>>>> Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net>; Steven Nekhaila <
>>>>> steven.nekhaila at lp.org>; Steven Nielson <steven.nielson at lp.org>; Tim
>>>>> Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>; Trent Somes <trent.somes at lp.org>; Whitney
>>>>> Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>; William Redpath <
>>>>> william.redpath at lp.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David I agree that there are completely panicked responses that are
>>>>> irrational or just unlibertarian - that the state is Mommy and Daddy ...
>>>>> but not everyone’s are.  And those who are not ARE RIGHT.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Arvin is wrong here and is incredibly destructive and doesn’t get to
>>>>> shield himself with “muh Principles” / I share them with just as much
>>>>> anarchist bona fides as he, and his lack of wisdom, discretion, and
>>>>> messaging are utterly inappropriate for a leader of the nation’s third
>>>>> largest political party.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not making “radical” friends with this.  It will cost me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t care.  I wasn’t elected to protect myself or my friends but
>>>>> this Party.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was one of the long-suffering before.  I have forbearance and
>>>>> patience.  I’m done.  And the completely disrespectful and patronizing
>>>>> email last night by him to this list was the final evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My opinion is clear.  He should resign.  However my *vote* depends on
>>>>> my region.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Caryn Ann
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 3:03 PM David Demarest <
>>>>> dpdemarest at centurylink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Caryn Ann,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your response and inclusion of rationality in this
>>>>> discussion. Now we are getting somewhere, but there is much work left to
>>>>> do. My underlying point is that if we Libertarians intend to present a
>>>>> rational face both internally and to the broader audience, it is high time
>>>>> to put the rational ‘horse’ before the passionate emotional response
>>>>> ‘cart’. Reason without heart and heart without reason is a false dichotomy.
>>>>> The real question is which comes first. I am a passionate Libertarian but
>>>>> only after doing up-front rational due-diligence analysis. Our primary
>>>>> means of survival is our rational capacity. I never cease to be amazed at
>>>>> Libertarians who dismiss our rational capacity and resort to the vitriolic
>>>>> nonsense that we have witnessed in this latest ideological fiasco.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You will notice that Arvin’s ‘inflammatory’ comments are all about
>>>>> rational analysis and his passionate responses AFTER arriving at his
>>>>> rational conclusions. I can understand that some disagree with some of his
>>>>> rational analysis. However, when their responses and calls to lynch mob
>>>>> action are conspicuously if not entirely devoid of anything remotely
>>>>> related to rational analysis, pardon me, but I am totally unimpressed and
>>>>> disappointed. Caryn Ann, you have done a better job, but several issues
>>>>> bear further rational examination.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If reasoned logical and rational conclusion make the job harder to get
>>>>> elected to top-down authoritarian positions, that raises a huge red flag
>>>>> and the question of what comes first. If getting elected takes precedence
>>>>> over accurate representation of the dictates of one’s conscience, we
>>>>> obviously have a fundamental ethical dilemma, exacerbated, of course, by
>>>>> our current cronyism-riddled non-competitive form of governance. I find the
>>>>> notion of determining the dictates of one’s conscience by taking a popular
>>>>> poll both morally offensive and ethically indefensible. I am totally
>>>>> unsympathetic to the evil notion of making one’s dictates of conscience
>>>>> subservient to get elected to top-down authoritarian positions in our
>>>>> cronyism-riddled and corrupt electoral system.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Per our earlier discussion, I can see the similarity between
>>>>> possession of black-market child pornography and the possession of
>>>>> black-market stolen goods. However, the bigger concern from my perspective
>>>>> is how we handle our disapproval, i.e., whether by oppressive, arbitrary
>>>>> and corrupt government enforcement, lynch mob justice or the far more
>>>>> powerful and effective long-term means of thoughtful economic and social
>>>>> ostracism or reinforcement feedback as appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We have seen many vitriolic, hysterical and lynch-mob responses to the
>>>>> current bruhaha just as we did on the earlier hubbubs last year about
>>>>> Satan-gate and putting the military and public-school teachers on
>>>>> inappropriate pedestals. I hate to say this, but we Libertarians have a
>>>>> long way to go. Are we capable of fixing the underlying problems? Yes! Do
>>>>> the current brute-force responses to this ruckus have us headed in the
>>>>> right direction. No!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It might surprise some, but fortunately there have been some rational
>>>>> responses to Arvin’s rational approach to these important
>>>>> government-imposed moral-dilemma questions. You must look hard to find them
>>>>> under the current vitriolic mindless smoke screen, but they are there. Just
>>>>> as the principled Libertarian ideas that led to the creation of the
>>>>> Libertarian Party, reflected in our Statement of Principles, were scorned
>>>>> by most back in 1971, now is the time for the next step to re-rationalize
>>>>> our current Libertarian ideological principle base beyond mere crass
>>>>> emotionalism and thoughtless lynch-mob mentality.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would point out again that these bruhahas appear to be primarily and
>>>>> directly related to electoral concerns. I would submit that those
>>>>> false-dichotomy electoral concerns will get relegated to insignificance
>>>>> when entrepreneurs build private replacements for government overreach
>>>>> social services. If you have a choice of who you buy social services from
>>>>> free of government social service monopoly interference, that choice will
>>>>> set the stage and inspire the election of Libertarians to all levels of
>>>>> government, starting from the bottom up, to provide for the necessary
>>>>> regulatory relief.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Enough of this mindless rationality-rejecting lynch-mob vitriolic
>>>>> fiasco. Let’s get on with using our heads for what they were designed for,
>>>>> namely passionate responses AFTER thoughtful due-diligence analysis, not
>>>>> before.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Caryn Ann, your injection of the fresh air of rationality into this
>>>>> bruhaha is a step in the right direction. Keep up the good work!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
>>>>> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt Demarest
>>>>>
>>>>> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>>>>>
>>>>> LSLA Vice-Chair
>>>>>
>>>>> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>>>>>
>>>>> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at LP.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Secretary at LPNE.org
>>>>>
>>>>> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>>>>>
>>>>> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Cell:      402-981-6469 <(402)%20981-6469>
>>>>>
>>>>> Home: 402-493-0873 <(402)%20493-0873>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org]
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 12:52 PM
>>>>> *To:* David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
>>>>> *Cc:* Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net>; Michelle MacCutcheon <
>>>>> michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>; George Syroney <
>>>>> georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>; Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>;
>>>>> Erin Adams <erin.adams at lp.org>; Whitney Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>;
>>>>> Sam Goldstein <sam.goldstein at lp.org>; Tim Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>;
>>>>> Daniel Hayes <daniel.hayes at lp.org>; Jeffrey Hewitt <
>>>>> jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>; Joshua Katz <joshua.katz at lp.org>; James Lark <
>>>>> james.lark at lp.org>; Ed Marsh <ed.marsh at lp.org>; Alicia Mattson <
>>>>> alicia.mattson at lp.org>; Patrick McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>;
>>>>> Dustin Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>; Steven Nekhaila <
>>>>> steven.nekhaila at lp.org>; Steven Nielson <steven.nielson at lp.org>; Sean
>>>>> OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>; William Redpath <william.redpath at lp.org>;
>>>>> Nicholas Sarwark <chair at lp.org>; Larry Sharpe <larry.sharpe at lp.org>;
>>>>> Trent Somes <trent.somes at lp.org>; Aaron Starr <aaron.starr at lp.org>;
>>>>> Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>; Arvin Vohra <
>>>>> arvin.vohra at lp.org>; David Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi David, I can assure you I am not betraying the dictates of my
>>>>> reason.  Reason without heart is inhuman.  Heart without reason is base
>>>>> animalism.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do I believe in freedom of speech and expression?  Do I think the
>>>>> overwrought reactions to nudity are downright nonsensical?  Does that mean
>>>>> I must think James Weeks was a courageous voice?  No.  Because it was
>>>>> foolish, counterproductive, and violated others.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because someone might have something "Libertarian" they are
>>>>> saying in there somewhere (i.e. arbitrary age of consent laws are
>>>>> collectivist - note that doesn't mean they can't generally get it right -
>>>>> generalizations can be true because they have some truth or no one would
>>>>> buy them) doesn't mean they are a courageous hero.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, rather than being a beacon of light, Arvin is actively
>>>>> harming the presentation of core libertarian values by providing a
>>>>> plentiful target for which the principle can be scapegoated.  His awful
>>>>> presentation of issues surrounding the military, education, welfare, etc
>>>>> have given the opponents of libertarian principles, both within and
>>>>> without, a way to smear to the principles with the messenger.  We may not
>>>>> like that such can be easily done.  But if wishes were fishes we would all
>>>>> cast nets.  As for me, I don't live on wishes and unicorns.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Arvin is affecting me personally.  He is making my life, my job, and
>>>>> my presentation of liberty harder.  That is not heroic.  That is an
>>>>> obstacle.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have sent out an inquiry to the Regional Chairs today to see their
>>>>> thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, this is my position.  I think Arvin should resign.  This
>>>>> has gotten ridiculous.  Alternatively, the delegates can make their choice
>>>>> in July.  But a lot of damage is done between then and now.  To put his
>>>>> peers and associates in the position of having to vote to censure or remove
>>>>> is an incredibly selfish and belligerent move.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The "response" last night to the LNC list was a perfect example of the
>>>>> tone-deaf tactic.  A member responded that it seemed to them like
>>>>> gaslighting.  And as someone who has been involved in very manipulative
>>>>> relationships, they hit the nail on the head.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Enough is enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And what he is doing is going to lead precisely to what he is saying
>>>>> he is "saving us from" (newsflash, we didn't elect a messiah)- worse
>>>>> candidates that do not stick to principles because we have modeled them in
>>>>> the worst possible way and made the liberating beauty of freedom repulsive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you want the party to take a hard turn towards unprincipled
>>>>> "centrism"? This is how you get it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Caryn Ann
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 9:36 AM, David Demarest <
>>>>> dpdemarest at centurylink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Damn. I was looking forward to a visit tomorrow to a neighboring state
>>>>> LP business meeting to publicize the rapidly approaching NOLA National
>>>>> Convention and Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention. Halleluiah, now I can
>>>>> use the possible snowy roads as an excuse to avoid the inevitable fallout
>>>>> from the latest Libertarian ruckus that will likely dominate the business
>>>>> meeting. However, that would be the coward’s way out. Furthermore, I had a
>>>>> dream just before waking up this morning that has changed my perspective.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> First a little background behind the dream I am about to narrate. I
>>>>> belong to the Alternative Book Club (ABC), which is a spinoff from
>>>>> Toastmasters focused on collaborative non-fiction books, most notably their
>>>>> ‘*Spotlight on the Art of …*’ series. My first published article was
>>>>> the ‘*Big Picture Significance*’ chapter in their latest release, ‘*Spotlight
>>>>> on the Art of Significance*’. I recently had to take a hiatus from
>>>>> Toastmasters and the book club until after I leave First Data on March 2
>>>>> nd, launch my writing career, get the Roads to Freedom Foundation off
>>>>> the ground, and get through the exciting crush of 2018 Libertarian events,
>>>>> including several state conventions, LSLA national conference, Omaha Roads
>>>>> to Freedom UnConvention, Porc Fest, NOLA National LP Convention, and
>>>>> Freedom Fest. Whew!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today, however, I am happy to report that my dream this morning,
>>>>> clearly prompted by the latest Libertarian hubbub, has changed my outlook
>>>>> on this controversy and my inclination to stay at home tomorrow. I do not
>>>>> mysticise the value of dreams. Nevertheless, they likely appear to be a
>>>>> reaction to internal conflicts complicated by random associations that
>>>>> often provoke new perspectives and happily generate seeds for future
>>>>> writing projects. Even though many of my ideas are a bit controversial for
>>>>> the Alternative Book Club, my dream this morning revolved around the book
>>>>> club analysis, assimilation and development of possible solutions to the
>>>>> latest Libertarian bruhaha and incorporation of them into a new
>>>>> collaborative book titled ‘*Spotlight on the Art of Solving
>>>>> Libertarian Bruhahas*’. J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As best I can recall, my dream focused on the passionate but logical,
>>>>> objective and courageous voice of reason rising above the wilderness of
>>>>> pile-on band-wagon political-correctness, over-dramatized reactions and
>>>>> subjective emotion-based shrill howl of the mob. Dreams, of course, are
>>>>> typically exaggerations of reality. What particularly struck me in my dream
>>>>> were the mob mutterings of “I don’t trust others (voters and other
>>>>> Libertarians) to take care of their own feelings” and “I don’t trust myself
>>>>> to take responsibility for my own feelings”. Two other things stood out in
>>>>> my dream. One was the almost universal preponderance of mob concerns that
>>>>> reflected their fear of scaring off voters and losing votes in their drive
>>>>> to gain elected authority over others that prompted them to misrepresent
>>>>> the dictates of their conscience in a desperate search for votes. The other
>>>>> was the incessant blaming of a controversial figure as a misrepresentation
>>>>> of their own self-doubts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sure my random dream associations stemmed in part from the
>>>>> valuable conflict resolution, stress management and negotiation training
>>>>> under the banner of assertive behavior counseling that was a turning point
>>>>> in my life and helped me through a ‘mid-life crisis’. Just as important, my
>>>>> earlier assertiveness training taught me that sitting around blaming
>>>>> controversial figures for my personal intellectual discomforts was
>>>>> particularly unconstructive behavior and did little to resolve either my
>>>>> personal internal conflicts or the controversy whose source I was using as
>>>>> a scapegoat for my personal shortcomings and self-esteem/self-image issues.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You know, I feel better already knowing that my dream unjustly
>>>>> characterized many Libertarians. Armed with that realization, I am prepared
>>>>> to risk the snowy roads to Kansas City tomorrow and enjoy the company of
>>>>> rational Libertarians as we celebrate Libertarian victories and prepare for
>>>>> tremendous progress in 2018.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sure the mob will have fun with my dream. Nevertheless, I hope it
>>>>> serves to help point this controversy in a different and more rational
>>>>> direction.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
>>>>> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~David Pratt Demarest
>>>>>
>>>>> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>>>>>
>>>>> LSLA Vice-Chair
>>>>>
>>>>> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>>>>>
>>>>> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at LP.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Secretary at LPNE.org
>>>>>
>>>>> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>>>>>
>>>>> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Cell:      402-981-6469 <(402)%20981-6469>
>>>>>
>>>>> Home: 402-493-0873 <(402)%20493-0873>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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