[Lnc-business] Fwd: Re: Recent VC Comments

Starchild starchild at lp.org
Mon Jan 15 19:52:17 EST 2018 

	I hear you, David. I believe Libertarian Party members should have the ability to directly recall members of the National Committee, without having to rely on LNC members themselves, or wait up to two years for the opportunity to do so at a national convention. Such a procedure could at least partly address, in a bottom-up manner, the issues you raise. Either those who desire a recall would muster the support to meet the threshold for it to pass, or they would not. 

	Since you are on the Bylaws Committee, perhaps you might even put forward such a proposal for the committee's consideration? Let me know if you or another Bylaws Committee member wishes to do so and would like help writing it.

Love & Liberty,

                                   ((( starchild )))
At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
                        RealReform at earthlink.net
                                 (415) 625-FREE


On Jan 15, 2018, at 4:08 PM, david.demarest at lp.org wrote:

> Good discussion!
> 
> Here are the choices in a top-down representative democracy electoral system as applied to a possible vote on the suspension or removal motion.
> 
> First, take a poll of the constituents (an obviously flawed process). Let's say the 60% of the vocal constituents favor approval. 30% favor rejection. and 10% don't care. Wishes of the silent minority are unknown. Let's say the dictates of my conscience favor rejecting the motion.
> 
> Now, the question is, whose dictates of conscience am I going to screw over, the vocal majority, the vocal minority, the silent minority, or mine. Hmmmm. Could there be a moral flaw in the top-down representative democracy electoral system?
> 
> However, have no doubt about how I would vote.
> 
> The solution to this moral dilemma is beyond the scope of this discussion except to say that the independent Roads to Freedom Foundation is focused on building bottom-up entrepreneurial private-sector social services, competitive governance, and bottom-up collaborative leadership by example. Guess what, our foundation does not suffer from the obvious moral dilemma presented in the previous paragraph.
> 
> Food for thought.
> 
> ~David Pratt Demarest
> 
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Fwd: Re: Recent VC Comments
> Date: 2018-01-15 18:02
> From: david.demarest at lp.org
> To: lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> Reply-To: lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 
> Amen. I just had one disappear into the ether. Actually, I think it went to Caryn Ann. I will figure out how to resend it. Thanks to the IT folks that are working hard to solve the issue.
> 
> ~David
> 
> On 2018-01-15 17:48, Elizabeth Van Horn wrote:
>> Well, this illustrates that we're both wrestling with the reply
>> feature.  *laughing*
>> ---
>> Elizabeth Van Horn
>> I understand.
>> Although, I don't see where he called anyone cowards.   I think his
>> "sign of fear" verbiage is more alluding to how others may perceive
>> it.   Plus, having fear isn't the same as being a coward.  Everyone
>> has fear.  I had fear before I made the motion, as I knew it would
>> open an ugly can of worms.  : (
>> ---
>> Elizabeth Van Horn
>> On 2018-01-15 18:40, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
>>> When people are called cowards it is personal. Larry is usually way
>>> more precise than that.
>>> And as we learned with Arvin, how a message is received is just as
>>> important as how it was intended.
>>> In the past he has always exemplified that, so I am asking for that
>>> now.
>>> I will drop it after this post.
>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 4:18 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn
>>> <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
>>> Hi Caryn Ann,
>>> I know that you'd probably co-sponsor the motion I made, (and maybe
>>> even vote in favor) except that you wish to abide by your Region's
>>> wishes.  I respect that.
>>> I'm in the same situation, only in reverse. For instance, all this
>>> time, I PERSONALLY have told everyone that the way to remove Arvin
>>> is to vote him out at the 2018 NOLA convention. That was, and still
>>> is, my personal position.
>>> But, I want to be able to give voice to the LP members in Region 3.
>>> That's what I signed up for, and that's what I told the Regional
>>> chairs I'd do. Other than out-of-hand unethical actions, I'll try to
>>> stick to what Region 3 wants. (Even if it's something I personally
>>> wouldn't do.) Because, now I'm representing hundreds of LP members
>>> and it would be disingenuous for me to take on that role, and push
>>> my personal views onto those who entrusted me.
>>> Larry Sharpe's commentary isn't a personal judgement of you, or
>>> others, who may decide to not support the motion.  It's his view on
>>> the RESPONSIBILITIES of the LNC role. His personal opinion.  Larry's
>>> not impugning your character or motivations.  He's saying what he
>>> thinks is the "responsibility" of the LNC members.  Just as there
>>> are LP members saying that they think my responsibility should be to
>>> my conscience, as that's how *they* view the LNC role.  I don't take
>>> it personal, if it's not directed at me, or a smear on motivations.
>>> I don't think Larry is indicating a judgement on your character or
>>> others who might act accordingly.
>>> ---
>>> Elizabeth Van Horn
>>> On 2018-01-15 17:17, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
>>> FYI - Many times my region says - we leave it to you.  That is their
>>> prerogative.  Not mine. This also protects small states to have an
>>> equal voice.  Montana knows that they have equal pull with me. They
>>> don't have to worry that me, a Coloradoan, may let unconscious
>>> prejudice for my home state to creep in.  I feel pretty fiercely
>>> about this.  I don't mind a disagreement.   I do mind greatly a
>>> judgment on my character.  To put it mildly.
>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 3:14 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>> In my opinion we do what we promised to do when elected. If YOUR
>>> region has no issue with that, that is YOUR prerogative. Region 1
>>> elected me on certain premises.  It is patently unfair and
>>> inflammatory to suggest that I am a coward or shirking my
>>> responsibility if I do what they elected me to do.  Seriously Larry,
>>> that is not right.  Don't make yourself wrong when you are right in
>>> everything else you said.
>>> If I felt I could NOT keep that promise, I would resign.  But I
>>> really take offense at you judging what the agreement is between me
>>> and my region.
>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Larry Sharpe
>>> <govsharpe at larrysharpe.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Caryn Ann,
>>> In my opinion, we are representatives. We should vote on what we
>>> feel is best. As acting Region 8 rep in December, I voted for Austin
>>> for the 2020 convention, when my region might have asked for
>>> Atlanta. If they had asked for Atlanta, I still would have voted for
>>> Austin and I would have explained my vote. Reps like Amash and
>>> Massie do this all the time. I assume that they select us to use our
>>> knowledge, insight and judgement. They would have the option of
>>> accepting my explanation or asking me to step down or demanding my
>>> removal. All good. If Patrick does not want to handle this issue and
>>> I need to step in as Region 8 Rep, I will vote yes to removal
>>> regardless of my states because I know that it is the best thing to
>>> do. They can ask for my explanation, my removal or both. All good. I
>>> think you should do what you think is best.
>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>> Do you agree that regionals should vote yes regardless of the wishes
>>> of their region?  Because that is what he said.
>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Dustin Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> Could not agree more Larry
>>> Dustin Nanna
>>> LNC Region 3 Alternate
>>> Vice Chair/Deputy Communications Director
>>> Libertarian Party of Ohio
>>> (740) 816-9805 [1]
>>> On Jan 15, 2018 3:53 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi Larry, great minds think alike ;)  I posted a similar letter
>>> about ten minutes ago.
>>> I will disagree sharply on one point however.
>>> Regional Representatives have a duty to their region.  To say that a
>>> regional should not vote the way their region wants is an abdication
>>> or fear.  I actually take sharp offense at that.  I have been the
>>> most outspoken in the past few days.  I am not afraid.  My personal
>>> position is clear.  But my region expects me to represent THEM and
>>> if they don't want us to take action - though I disagree - that is
>>> their right to make.  Please be more careful in making such
>>> judgments against your peers.
>>> On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Larry Sharpe
>>> <govsharpe at larrysharpe.com> wrote:
>>> Dear LNC,
>>> With the most recent comments and controversy regarding our
>>> Vice-Chair, Arvin Vohra, we find ourselves in another quagmire,
>>> wasting our time and efforts, dividing us and making us look
>>> unprofessional once again.
>>> The key word is again. This is no longer about Arvin. For clarity, I
>>> am not angry at him at all. This is about us and our failures. We
>>> are here again because of our inaction. This is our fault; our
>>> responsibility. We cannot prevent all of these issues before they
>>> arise, but we can certainly act every time they do. I am
>>> disappointed in our organization. We need to be better, bolder and
>>> smarter.
>>> Arvin bullied many of our constituents last year (Veterans,
>>> Military, Teachers, Parents, etc...) and we did nothing. We hid
>>> behind policy and procedure, cowering, hoping the bully would just
>>> go away. His enablers tried to intimidate and squelch us. And
>>> together, with our inaction, we empowered Arvin to do more. So, he
>>> did.
>>> Now, as he bullies even more and moves into the realm of children,
>>> will we fail again? Please no! This time we must act. We must act
>>> quickly and decisively, or we will pay tenfold in the future. There
>>> are three reasons why we must:
>>> Moral: We have created this bully, by standing by while his enablers
>>> created false narratives and fantasy scenarios and pressured us by
>>> selfishly invoking our "values" for their needs. These enablers are
>>> flunky bullies that defend Arvin so that they can bully too. As they
>>> silence us, they punish our members, our donors, our candidates and
>>> our advocates.  Good leaders do not let that happen.
>>> Practical: To make change in this nation, we need to grow our party.
>>> Alienating has proven to fail. Democrats called Vietnam Vets
>>> "baby-killers" when they came home. How did that work out?  His
>>> enablers will say that we are not being honest. They are wrong. We
>>> can be honest without being mean. We can be principled without
>>> alienating. These enabling-petty tyrants see little value in growth
>>> that may lessen their control of their local fiefdom. Good leaders
>>> can see the big picture and act accordingly.
>>> Professional: NO other public professional organization in the
>>> country would accept this behavior. As an officer in a public
>>> organization, your speech (public or private) represents that
>>> organization. Whether that is fair or not is irrelevant and we see
>>> that EVERYWHERE. Some of Arvin's enablers think that private
>>> opinions are somehow immune. These are the thoughts of naïve
>>> idealists.  When you voluntarily take a position in a public
>>> organization, you also volunteer to curb your speech, both public
>>> and private. If you are not prepared to do that, you shouldn't
>>> accept the position. Good leaders must hold their own accountable.
>>> This is not about Arvins's correctness, nor his attitude. It isn't
>>> about him at all. Because an "Arvin" will always pop up here and
>>> there. It is about us. Do we have the moral courage as an
>>> organization to quell behavior that is both impractical and
>>> unprofessional, or not? Will we set the precedent and create the
>>> environment within this organization that promotes growth with
>>> principle and communication with compassion and support our
>>> candidates and advocates, so we can make real impact in our nation?
>>> Or will we encourage angry pettiness and stay in the basement of
>>> history smugly watching as our rights get voted away, but feeling
>>> warm in our righteousness?
>>> I realize that acting will cause strife in our party. We have strife
>>> already. This strife is required growing pain for us to make the
>>> next step. If we don't accept this short-term pain for long-term
>>> gain, we will suffer even more, as the recent issues from our
>>> inaction last year have shown.
>>> We must prioritize this and vote to remove Arvin from his position
>>> now.  Anything else shows that we will kowtow to bullies, that we
>>> are ill prepared to lead and that we are not ready for the big
>>> leagues. As we grow in stature and influence, the nation will be
>>> watching.
>>> There is a second motion (the 2nd in less than a year) from the
>>> Region 3 Rep, Elisabeth Van Horn, to remove Arvin. The first motion
>>> came from Region 8 Rep, Patrick McKnight, last year. We need to
>>> second either motion and vote on it as soon as possible.
>>> An abstention in this vote is an abdication of responsibility and a
>>> sign of fear. We need to be bold more than ever. The buck must stop
>>> somewhere. Let it stop here. A no vote validates this behavior and
>>> encourages more of it. Let's not be here again in 6 months wasting
>>> more time and energy.
>>> We must not hide. Let's get this done now. If we don't, we will
>>> hamper our growth, handicap our candidates and discourage our
>>> advocates.
>>> Let's fix this.
>>> Larry Sharpe
>>> Region 8 Rep Alternate, LNC
>>> --
>>> Larry
>>> LARRY SHARPE
>>> Larry Sharpe for Governor [2]
>>> 445 Park Ave, 9th Floor [3]
>>> New York, NY 10022 [3] [4]   [5] [6]  [7]
>> --
>> Larry
>> LARRY SHARPE
>> Larry Sharpe for Governor [2]
>> 445 Park Ave, 9th Floor [3]
>> New York, NY 10022 [3] [4]   [5] [6]  [7]
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] tel:(740)%20816-9805
>> [2] http://www.larrysharpe.com/
>> [3]
>> https://maps.google.com/?q=445+Park+Ave,+9th+FloorNew+York,+NY+10022&entry=gmail&source=g
>> [4] https://www.facebook.com/LarrySharpe4Gov/
>> [5] https://twitter.com/LarrySharpe
>> [6] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp2EegvSGEsgc-diPwc0ZHQ
>> [7] https://www.linkedin.com/in/neosage/
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