[Lnc-business] Note about our electronic meeting
Joshua Katz
planning4liberty at gmail.com
Mon Feb 5 19:10:20 EST 2018
Like I said, it doesn't require it because the basic assumption is that
rights can only be lost via a disciplinary process unless the
organization's bylaws say otherwise (or higher rules). You might not like
it (there are some places I think RONR gets it wrong), but I think it is
internally consistent on this point. When it matters enough, organizations
tend to adopt rules, or governments tend to write laws (for instance,
neighborhood association memberships when serving on a land use board).
On the suspension vote, I would point out that it doesn't matter at all
(assuming the person votes no). Recusal is the same as abstention, and our
rules set the threshold as based on the entire membership, not those
voting. When the threshold is based on the entire membership, an
abstention is equivalent to a no (or, to put it another way, there is no
such thing, mathematically, as abstaining). In such a vote, all you're
doing is counting how many yes votes you get.
Joshua A. Katz
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:45 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
wrote:
> Ahhhh no the pecuniary interest is from a totally separate thing
> involving Oregon. Nothing at all to do with here. There is nothing to
> do with pecuniary interest here. I learned then that RONR did not
> require recusal (the member did later voluntarily recuse).
>
> I was just pointing out now I see two areas where RONR makes no sense
> (IMHO).
>
> And for the suspension vote it really makes no sense. The threshold is
> already high (and of the ENTIRE LNC) with at least one nearlay certain
> no.
>
> Where I got a bad vibe Daniel was the comment about members making
> things mean what they want. I know some members are freaking out over
> this and I felt like there was an implication that I was putting on an
> innocent face while really stirring that pot. Which I’m not. I’ve
> been studying RONR daily for a bit now and wanted to understand.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:38 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
> <[1]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>
> That makes sense Joshua but still odd.
>
> I note that Chair Wylie did vote yes on the no confidence vote against
> him.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:37 PM Daniel Hayes <[2]daniel.hayes at lp.org>
> wrote:
>
> Caryn Ann,
> I was trying to get you to site that specific passage from RONR so
> we could parse it out. I wasn’t being a jerk, more than
> Parliamentary Procedure normally allows for.
> It is common that when someone makes a claim that a citation is
> requested. I expected that you were referencing that section Joshua
> mentioned regarding pecuniary interest. If you notice he used the
> language from Roberts. I don’t have MY copy at hand to cite. It
> does use the word “should” and not “shall” or “must”. It might seem
> reasonable that a person recuse their self but why? Have they been
> convicted? Because they are accused why do they lose their right to
> vote and represent those that selected them for the office?
> As to using other texts. I stand by what I said, I am pretty sure I
> got that language either from RONR or “Dan”(read the authors on the
> book). Both are generally considered the final word. That said, I
> can’t cite it so don’t consider this authoritative.😇
> Sorry if it came off the wrong way.
> Daniel
> Sent from my iPhone
> > On Feb 5, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Joshua Katz
> <[3]planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I am also perplexed. The way I saw it, you asked a question,
> and I
> > felt I needed more information to answer it. In particular, you
> were
> > asking if something is allowed, which is very hard to explain in
> the
> > abstract - it is much easier if you tell me why you think it
> isn't
> > allowed so I can deal with the specific issue in question.
> > I see two possible reasons in your earlier email, and I'll give
> my
> > opinion on those (since we all agree it's an opinion question,
> not a
> > formal situation where I would let the chair answer):
> >> Of course I also think it logical that if a voting member of any
> body
> > has a specific pecuniary interest in the outcome, that they
> should be
> > required to recuse themselves, and RONR does not require that.
> > I don't fully agree with this. RONR does not allow the body to
> force
> > the person to recuse themselves, nor does it actually require
> that they
> > do, but I think it's fair to say that, in such a situation, it
> is
> > strongly urged (where the interest is not in common with the
> others).
> > The question is whether a censure motion meets this threshold,
> in which
> > case the person would still be allowed to vote, but would be
> "supposed"
> > to not do so. I'm not sure that it does. There's clearly no
> pecuniary
> > interest. Arguably, there's a personal interest, but censure
> doesn't
> > actually impact any rights or obligations. The real interest at
> stake
> > in a censure motion, in my view, is the interest of the body in
> > expressing its response to actions, not any personal interest of
> the
> > person censured. That is a common interest.
> > You pointed out that no one will vote for their own censure. I
> agree,
> > but why not? Idealistically speaking, it's because they would
> not
> > agree that the actions in question are harmful to the
> organization. If
> > they thought that, they wouldn't have taken them. But others
> can share
> > the same view, and a "no" vote is a perfectly reasonable way of
> > expressing that opinion - it's not unique to the person.
> > Other than that, I agree with your observation that censure is
> not
> > disciplinary action, which is why (regardless of bylaws) it does
> not
> > invoke any of the Chapter XX procedures. I don't think you
> reach the
> > question of trial procedures (on which I agree with Alicia that
> our
> > bylaws permit suspension as a motion) because censure is not
> > discipline. As a result, you fall back on the general
> provision: no
> > member of a body can ever lose their right to vote, unless the
> bylaws
> > say otherwise, except through a disciplinary action. Hence, I
> would
> > conclude that a member may vote on their own censure.
> > That's my take, anyway. As a purely "rules bound" matter,
> members can
> > vote whenever there is not a rule saying otherwise, but it's
> worthwhile
> > to look at the why, I agree.
> >
> > Joshua A. Katz
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 2:52 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
> > <[1][4]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> >
> > I am perplexed by the tone of this email chain.
> > It appears that the nonsensical opportunism that has been
> rampant
> > throughout our party has everyone on edge.
> > I don’t believe in rote memorization. I am trying to
> understand
> > the
> > “why” of this - it makes no sense. Blind adherence to RONR
> may
> > be our
> > rules but that doesn’t make it logical.
> > There is no agenda here other than me wanting to learn and
> > understand.
> > I’ll go join a RONR forum and not ask here in the future.
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:14 PM Daniel Hayes
> > <[1][2][5]daniel.hayes at lp.org>
> > wrote:
> > That is not Authoritative. ONLY RONR 11th ed and Roberts
> in
> > brief
> > to a degree fit that. All other works are only
> persuasive at
> > best.
> > RONR is part of our rules. What someone thinks it should
> be is
> > not
> > what if necessarily is legally.
> > Daniel
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> On Feb 5, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
> >
> > <[2][3][6]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Okay, first is from an informal summary of RR which is where
> > I
> > think
> >> most members are getting this understanding --- and the
> > understanding
> >> makes a lot of sense IMHO. Of course one is not going to vote
> > to
> >> censure oneself.
> >> ==
> >>
> >> Making a Motion to Censure
> >>
> >> To censure a member or an officer is to warn him or her that
> > if
> > a
> >> certain behavior continues, the next step is suspension or
> > expulsion.
> >>
> >> Censure
> >>
> >> * Purpose: To reprimand the member with the hopes of
> > reforming
> > him or
> >> her so that he or she won't behave in the same way again.
> >> * Needs a second.
> >> * Amendable.
> >> * Debatable.
> >> * Requires a majority vote.
> >> * Can't be reconsidered.
> >> * Result: The member is put on notice that if he or she
> > repeats the
> >> offense, he or she can be suspended or removed from
> > membership or
> >> office.
> >>
> >> This is an incidental main motion and can be made only when no
> > business
> >> is pending. All subsidiary and incidental motions can be
> > applied
> > to
> >> this motion. The member or officer being censured may come to
> > his own
> >> defense during the debate but can't vote. Taking the vote by
> > ballot is
> >> wise. A member can not be censured twice for the same offense.
> >> === source
> >
> >
> [1][3][4][7]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> >
> >> Now I know that seems to be a document referring to an earlier
> > version
> >> (or the original) and I can only find this idea of not being
> > allowed to
> >> vote in the case of an imposed penalty or a trial in RONR
> > Chapter 20.
> >> But the logic certainly holds. And it wasn't for no reason
> > that
> > Nick
> >> originally thought that Arvin couldn't vote, and Arvin
> > originally
> >> thought so as well. Of course I also think it logical that if
> > a
> > voting
> >> member of any body has a specific pecuniary interest in the
> > outcome,
> >> that they should be required to recuse themselves, and RONR
> > does
> > not
> >> require that.
> >> Alicia previously said that our bylaws supersede a requirement
> > for a
> >> trial. I disagreed then and still disagree now. If a
> > suspension vote
> >> had passed, I think that would have been a fatal defect.
> >> So I am just trying to learn for my own benefit - can a member
> > (officer
> >> or not) vote on a censure motion? I cannot find specific
> > language that
> >> they cannot - though I CAN find specific language that a
> > member
> > cannot
> >> if it is an infraction during a meeting (page 647) and for
> > which
> > a
> >> penalty will be imposed (and a censure alone is not a penalty)
> > [implied
> >> by page 643 asterisked note on bottom).
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Daniel Hayes
> >
> > <[2][4][5][8]daniel.hayes at lp.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> This is why I asked you to cite your point from RONR.
> > It’s
> > how you
> >> hopefully end an argument.
> >> Daniel
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Feb 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Joshua Katz
> >> <[3][5][6][9]planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Can you explain exactly what the objection is? I don't the
> > book
> > in
> >>> front of me, but I do not recall any statement in RONR
> > about
> > voting
> >> on
> >>> censure.
> >>>
> >>> Joshua A. Katz
> >>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos
> >>> <[1][4][6][7][10]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Oh I know. This is an informal question in order to
> > learn.
> >>> Without being binding - and even if raised then no
> > result
> >> would
> >>> be
> >>> changed - does anyone have any thoughts? If I’m
> > mistaken
> > can
> >>> someone
> >>> explain to me?
> >>> This is simply an effort to further master RONR not to
> > start a
> >>> controversy or rehash a settled vote.
> >>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:11 AM Nicholas Sarwark
> >>> <[1][2][5][7][8][11]chair at lp.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> Points of order need to be made at the time.
> >>> We are no longer at the time.
> >>> -Nick
> >>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
> >>>
> >
> >>> <[2][3][6][8][9][12]carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I think we made an error. It doesn't affect the outcome but
> >>> I
> >>> have
> >>>> seen members comment on this (and big surprise, there are a
> >>> vocal few
> >>>> who are seeing a conspiracy in it) but I don't think Arvin
> >>> should have
> >>>> been allowed to vote on the censure motion.
> >>>> Our Bylaws supersede RONR on suspension (and I think our
> >>> Bylaws
> >>> are
> >>>> flawed there but it is what it is) but do not supersede RONR
> >>> on
> >>>> censure.
> >>>> Thus I think it was in order for Arvin to vote on suspension
> >>> but not in
> >>>> order for him to vote on censure.
> >>>> Thoughts?
> >>>> --
> >>>> In Liberty,
> >>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
> >>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee
> >>> (Alaska,
> >>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
> >>> Washington)
> >>>> - [1]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
> >>>> Communications Director, [2]Libertarian Party of Colorado
> >>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
> >>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
> >>>> We defend your rights
> >>>> And oppose the use of force
> >>>> Taxation is theft
> >>>>
> >>>> References
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>> 1. mailto:[3]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> >
> >>>> 2. [4][4][7][9][10][13]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >>> References
> >>> 1. mailto:[5][8][10][11][14]chair at lp.org
> >>> 2. mailto:[6][9][11][12][15]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> >>> 3. mailto:[7]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> >>> 4. [8][10][12][13][16]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >>>
> >>> References
> >>>
> >>> 1. mailto:[11][13][14][17]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> >>> 2. mailto:[12][14][15][18]chair at lp.org
> >>> 3. mailto:[13][15][16][19]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> >>> 4. [14][16][17][20]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >>> 5. mailto:[15][17][18][21]chair at lp.org
> >>> 6. mailto:[16][18][19][22]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> >>> 7. mailto:[17]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> >>> 8. [18][19][20][23]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >> 1. [20][21][24]https://www.kidlink.org/
> > docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> >> 2. mailto:[21][22][25]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> >> 3. mailto:[22][23][26]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> >> 4. mailto:[23][24][27]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> >> 5. mailto:[24][25][28]chair at lp.org
> >> 6. mailto:[25][26][29]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> >> 7. [26][27][30]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >> 8. mailto:[27][28][31]chair at lp.org
> >> 9. mailto:[28][29][32]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> >> 10. [29][30][33]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >> 11. mailto:[30][31][34]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> >> 12. mailto:[31][32][35]chair at lp.org
> >> 13. mailto:[32][33][36]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> >> 14. [33][34][37]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >> 15. mailto:[34][35][38]chair at lp.org
> >> 16. mailto:[35][36][39]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> >> 17. mailto:[36]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> >> 18. [37][37][40]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > References
> > 1. mailto:[38][41]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 2. mailto:[39][42]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 3.
> [40][43]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> > 4. mailto:[41][44]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 5. mailto:[42][45]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:[43][46]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 7. mailto:[44][47]chair at lp.org
> > 8. mailto:[45][48]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 9. [46][49]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 10. mailto:[47][50]chair at lp.org
> > 11. mailto:[48][51]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 12. [49][52]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 13. mailto:[50][53]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 14. mailto:[51][54]chair at lp.org
> > 15. mailto:[52][55]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 16. [53][56]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 17. mailto:[54][57]chair at lp.org
> > 18. mailto:[55][58]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 19. [56][59]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 20.
> [57][60]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> > 21. mailto:[58][61]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 22. mailto:[59][62]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> > 23. mailto:[60][63]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 24. mailto:[61][64]chair at lp.org
> > 25. mailto:[62][65]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 26. [63][66]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 27. mailto:[64][67]chair at lp.org
> > 28. mailto:[65][68]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 29. [66][69]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 30. mailto:[67][70]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 31. mailto:[68][71]chair at lp.org
> > 32. mailto:[69][72]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 33. [70][73]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 34. mailto:[71][74]chair at lp.org
> > 35. mailto:[72][75]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 36. mailto:[73]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> > 37. [74][76]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[77]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 2. mailto:[78]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 3. mailto:[79]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 4. [80]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> > 5. mailto:[81]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 6. mailto:[82]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> > 7. mailto:[83]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 8. mailto:[84]chair at lp.org
> > 9. mailto:[85]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 10. [86]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 11. mailto:[87]chair at lp.org
> > 12. mailto:[88]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 13. [89]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 14. mailto:[90]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 15. mailto:[91]chair at lp.org
> > 16. mailto:[92]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 17. [93]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 18. mailto:[94]chair at lp.org
> > 19. mailto:[95]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 20. [96]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 21. [97]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> > 22. mailto:[98]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 23. mailto:[99]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> > 24. mailto:[100]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 25. mailto:[101]chair at lp.org
> > 26. mailto:[102]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 27. [103]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 28. mailto:[104]chair at lp.org
> > 29. mailto:[105]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 30. [106]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 31. mailto:[107]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 32. mailto:[108]chair at lp.org
> > 33. mailto:[109]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 34. [110]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 35. mailto:[111]chair at lp.org
> > 36. mailto:[112]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 37. [113]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 38. mailto:[114]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 39. mailto:[115]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 40. [116]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> > 41. mailto:[117]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 42. mailto:[118]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> > 43. mailto:[119]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 44. mailto:[120]chair at lp.org
> > 45. mailto:[121]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 46. [122]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 47. mailto:[123]chair at lp.org
> > 48. mailto:[124]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 49. [125]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 50. mailto:[126]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 51. mailto:[127]chair at lp.org
> > 52. mailto:[128]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 53. [129]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 54. mailto:[130]chair at lp.org
> > 55. mailto:[131]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 56. [132]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 57. [133]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> > 58. mailto:[134]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> > 59. mailto:[135]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> > 60. mailto:[136]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 61. mailto:[137]chair at lp.org
> > 62. mailto:[138]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 63. [139]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 64. mailto:[140]chair at lp.org
> > 65. mailto:[141]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 66. [142]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 67. mailto:[143]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> > 68. mailto:[144]chair at lp.org
> > 69. mailto:[145]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 70. [146]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> > 71. mailto:[147]chair at lp.org
> > 72. mailto:[148]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> > 73. mailto:[149]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> > 74. [150]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 2. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 3. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 4. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 5. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 6. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 7. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 8. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 9. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 10. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 11. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 12. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 13. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 14. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 15. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 16. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 17. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 18. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 19. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 20. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 21. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 22. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 23. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 24. https://www.kidlink.org/
> 25. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 26. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 27. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 28. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 29. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 30. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 31. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 32. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 33. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 34. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 35. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 36. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 37. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 38. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 39. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 40. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 41. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 42. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 43. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 44. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 45. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 46. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 47. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 48. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 49. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 50. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 51. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 52. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 53. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 54. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 55. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 56. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 57. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 58. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 59. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 60. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 61. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 62. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 63. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 64. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 65. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 66. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 67. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 68. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 69. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 70. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 71. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 72. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 73. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 74. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 75. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 76. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 77. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 78. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 79. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 80. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 81. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 82. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 83. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 84. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 85. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 86. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 87. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 88. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 89. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 90. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 91. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 92. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 93. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 94. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 95. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 96. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 97. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 98. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 99. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 100. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 101. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 102. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 103. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 104. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 105. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 106. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 107. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 108. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 109. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 110. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 111. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 112. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 113. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 114. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 115. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 116. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 117. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 118. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 119. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 120. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 121. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 122. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 123. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 124. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 125. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 126. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 127. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 128. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 129. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 130. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 131. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 132. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 133. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 134. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 135. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 136. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 137. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 138. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 139. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 140. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 141. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 142. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 143. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 144. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 145. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 146. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 147. mailto:chair at lp.org
> 148. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 149. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> 150. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>
-------------- next part --------------
Like I said, it doesn't require it because the basic assumption is that
rights can only be lost via a disciplinary process unless the
organization's bylaws say otherwise (or higher rules). You might not
like it (there are some places I think RONR gets it wrong), but I think
it is internally consistent on this point. When it matters enough,
organizations tend to adopt rules, or governments tend to write laws
(for instance, neighborhood association memberships when serving on a
land use board).
On the suspension vote, I would point out that it doesn't matter at all
(assuming the person votes no). Recusal is the same as abstention, and
our rules set the threshold as based on the entire membership, not
those voting. When the threshold is based on the entire membership, an
abstention is equivalent to a no (or, to put it another way, there is
no such thing, mathematically, as abstaining). In such a vote, all
you're doing is counting how many yes votes you get.
Joshua A. Katz
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:45 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
<[1]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
Ahhhh no the pecuniary interest is from a totally separate thing
involving Oregon. Nothing at all to do with here. There is
nothing to
do with pecuniary interest here. I learned then that RONR did
not
require recusal (the member did later voluntarily recuse).
I was just pointing out now I see two areas where RONR makes no
sense
(IMHO).
And for the suspension vote it really makes no sense. The
threshold is
already high (and of the ENTIRE LNC) with at least one nearlay
certain
no.
Where I got a bad vibe Daniel was the comment about members
making
things mean what they want. I know some members are freaking out
over
this and I felt like there was an implication that I was putting
on an
innocent face while really stirring that pot. Which I’m not.
I’ve
been studying RONR daily for a bit now and wanted to understand.
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:38 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[1][2]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
That makes sense Joshua but still odd.
I note that Chair Wylie did vote yes on the no confidence vote
against
him.
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:37 PM Daniel Hayes
<[2][3]daniel.hayes at lp.org>
wrote:
Caryn Ann,
I was trying to get you to site that specific passage from RONR
so
we could parse it out. I wasn’t being a jerk, more than
Parliamentary Procedure normally allows for.
It is common that when someone makes a claim that a citation is
requested. I expected that you were referencing that section
Joshua
mentioned regarding pecuniary interest. If you notice he used
the
language from Roberts. I don’t have MY copy at hand to cite.
It
does use the word “should” and not “shall” or “must”. It might
seem
reasonable that a person recuse their self but why? Have they
been
convicted? Because they are accused why do they lose their
right to
vote and represent those that selected them for the office?
As to using other texts. I stand by what I said, I am pretty
sure I
got that language either from RONR or “Dan”(read the authors on
the
book). Both are generally considered the final word. That
said, I
can’t cite it so don’t consider this authoritative.😇
Sorry if it came off the wrong way.
Daniel
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 5, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Joshua Katz
<[3][4]planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am also perplexed. The way I saw it, you asked a question,
and I
> felt I needed more information to answer it. In particular,
you
were
> asking if something is allowed, which is very hard to explain
in
the
> abstract - it is much easier if you tell me why you think it
isn't
> allowed so I can deal with the specific issue in question.
> I see two possible reasons in your earlier email, and I'll
give
my
> opinion on those (since we all agree it's an opinion question,
not a
> formal situation where I would let the chair answer):
>> Of course I also think it logical that if a voting member of
any
body
> has a specific pecuniary interest in the outcome, that they
should be
> required to recuse themselves, and RONR does not require that.
> I don't fully agree with this. RONR does not allow the body
to
force
> the person to recuse themselves, nor does it actually require
that they
> do, but I think it's fair to say that, in such a situation, it
is
> strongly urged (where the interest is not in common with the
others).
> The question is whether a censure motion meets this threshold,
in which
> case the person would still be allowed to vote, but would be
"supposed"
> to not do so. I'm not sure that it does. There's clearly no
pecuniary
> interest. Arguably, there's a personal interest, but censure
doesn't
> actually impact any rights or obligations. The real interest
at
stake
> in a censure motion, in my view, is the interest of the body
in
> expressing its response to actions, not any personal interest
of
the
> person censured. That is a common interest.
> You pointed out that no one will vote for their own censure.
I
agree,
> but why not? Idealistically speaking, it's because they would
not
> agree that the actions in question are harmful to the
organization. If
> they thought that, they wouldn't have taken them. But others
can share
> the same view, and a "no" vote is a perfectly reasonable way
of
> expressing that opinion - it's not unique to the person.
> Other than that, I agree with your observation that censure is
not
> disciplinary action, which is why (regardless of bylaws) it
does
not
> invoke any of the Chapter XX procedures. I don't think you
reach the
> question of trial procedures (on which I agree with Alicia
that
our
> bylaws permit suspension as a motion) because censure is not
> discipline. As a result, you fall back on the general
provision: no
> member of a body can ever lose their right to vote, unless the
bylaws
> say otherwise, except through a disciplinary action. Hence, I
would
> conclude that a member may vote on their own censure.
> That's my take, anyway. As a purely "rules bound" matter,
members can
> vote whenever there is not a rule saying otherwise, but it's
worthwhile
> to look at the why, I agree.
>
> Joshua A. Katz
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 2:52 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
> <[1][4][5]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>
> I am perplexed by the tone of this email chain.
> It appears that the nonsensical opportunism that has
been
rampant
> throughout our party has everyone on edge.
> I don’t believe in rote memorization. I am trying to
understand
> the
> “why” of this - it makes no sense. Blind adherence to
RONR
may
> be our
> rules but that doesn’t make it logical.
> There is no agenda here other than me wanting to learn
and
> understand.
> I’ll go join a RONR forum and not ask here in the
future.
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:14 PM Daniel Hayes
> <[1][2][5][6]daniel.hayes at lp.org>
> wrote:
> That is not Authoritative. ONLY RONR 11th ed and
Roberts
in
> brief
> to a degree fit that. All other works are only
persuasive at
> best.
> RONR is part of our rules. What someone thinks it
should
be is
> not
> what if necessarily is legally.
> Daniel
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On Feb 5, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>
> <[2][3][6][7]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Okay, first is from an informal summary of RR which is where
> I
> think
>> most members are getting this understanding --- and the
> understanding
>> makes a lot of sense IMHO. Of course one is not going to vote
> to
>> censure oneself.
>> ==
>>
>> Making a Motion to Censure
>>
>> To censure a member or an officer is to warn him or her that
> if
> a
>> certain behavior continues, the next step is suspension or
> expulsion.
>>
>> Censure
>>
>> * Purpose: To reprimand the member with the hopes of
> reforming
> him or
>> her so that he or she won't behave in the same way again.
>> * Needs a second.
>> * Amendable.
>> * Debatable.
>> * Requires a majority vote.
>> * Can't be reconsidered.
>> * Result: The member is put on notice that if he or she
> repeats the
>> offense, he or she can be suspended or removed from
> membership or
>> office.
>>
>> This is an incidental main motion and can be made only when no
> business
>> is pending. All subsidiary and incidental motions can be
> applied
> to
>> this motion. The member or officer being censured may come to
> his own
>> defense during the debate but can't vote. Taking the vote by
> ballot is
>> wise. A member can not be censured twice for the same offense.
>> === source
>
>
[1][3][4][7][8]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/
chap15.html
>
>> Now I know that seems to be a document referring to an earlier
> version
>> (or the original) and I can only find this idea of not being
> allowed to
>> vote in the case of an imposed penalty or a trial in RONR
> Chapter 20.
>> But the logic certainly holds. And it wasn't for no reason
> that
> Nick
>> originally thought that Arvin couldn't vote, and Arvin
> originally
>> thought so as well. Of course I also think it logical that if
> a
> voting
>> member of any body has a specific pecuniary interest in the
> outcome,
>> that they should be required to recuse themselves, and RONR
> does
> not
>> require that.
>> Alicia previously said that our bylaws supersede a requirement
> for a
>> trial. I disagreed then and still disagree now. If a
> suspension vote
>> had passed, I think that would have been a fatal defect.
>> So I am just trying to learn for my own benefit - can a member
> (officer
>> or not) vote on a censure motion? I cannot find specific
> language that
>> they cannot - though I CAN find specific language that a
> member
> cannot
>> if it is an infraction during a meeting (page 647) and for
> which
> a
>> penalty will be imposed (and a censure alone is not a penalty)
> [implied
>> by page 643 asterisked note on bottom).
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Daniel Hayes
>
> <[2][4][5][8][9]daniel.hayes at lp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is why I asked you to cite your point from RONR.
> It’s
> how you
>> hopefully end an argument.
>> Daniel
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Joshua Katz
>> <[3][5][6][9][10]planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Can you explain exactly what the objection is? I don't the
> book
> in
>>> front of me, but I do not recall any statement in RONR
> about
> voting
>> on
>>> censure.
>>>
>>> Joshua A. Katz
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> <[1][4][6][7][10][11]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Oh I know. This is an informal question in order to
> learn.
>>> Without being binding - and even if raised then no
> result
>> would
>>> be
>>> changed - does anyone have any thoughts? If I’m
> mistaken
> can
>>> someone
>>> explain to me?
>>> This is simply an effort to further master RONR not to
> start a
>>> controversy or rehash a settled vote.
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:11 AM Nicholas Sarwark
>>> <[1][2][5][7][8][11][12]chair at lp.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> Points of order need to be made at the time.
>>> We are no longer at the time.
>>> -Nick
>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>>>
>
>>> <[2][3][6][8][9][12][13]carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I think we made an error. It doesn't affect the outcome but
>>> I
>>> have
>>>> seen members comment on this (and big surprise, there are a
>>> vocal few
>>>> who are seeing a conspiracy in it) but I don't think Arvin
>>> should have
>>>> been allowed to vote on the censure motion.
>>>> Our Bylaws supersede RONR on suspension (and I think our
>>> Bylaws
>>> are
>>>> flawed there but it is what it is) but do not supersede RONR
>>> on
>>>> censure.
>>>> Thus I think it was in order for Arvin to vote on suspension
>>> but not in
>>>> order for him to vote on censure.
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>> --
>>>> In Liberty,
>>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>>> (Alaska,
>>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
>>> Washington)
>>>> - [1]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>>>> Communications Director, [2]Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>>>> We defend your rights
>>>> And oppose the use of force
>>>> Taxation is theft
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>>
>>>
>>>> 1. mailto:[3]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>
>>>> 2. [4][4][7][9][10][13][14]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>> References
>>> 1. mailto:[5][8][10][11][14][15]chair at lp.org
>>> 2. mailto:[6][9][11][12][15][16]caryn
annharlos at gmail.com
>>> 3. mailto:[7]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 4. [8][10][12][13][16][17]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:[11][13][14][17][18]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>>> 2. mailto:[12][14][15][18][19]chair at lp.org
>>> 3. mailto:[13][15][16][19][20]carynannharlos at gmail.com
>>> 4. [14][16][17][20][21]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>> 5. mailto:[15][17][18][21][22]chair at lp.org
>>> 6. mailto:[16][18][19][22][23]carynannharlos at gmail.com
>>> 7. mailto:[17]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 8. [18][19][20][23][24]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [20][21][24][25]https://www.kidlink.org/
> docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
>> 2. mailto:[21][22][25][26]daniel.hayes at lp.org
>> 3. mailto:[22][23][26][27]planning4liberty at gmail.com
>> 4. mailto:[23][24][27][28]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>> 5. mailto:[24][25][28][29]chair at lp.org
>> 6. mailto:[25][26][29][30]carynannharlos at gmail.com
>> 7. [26][27][30][31]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 8. mailto:[27][28][31][32]chair at lp.org
>> 9. mailto:[28][29][32][33]carynannharlos at gmail.com
>> 10. [29][30][33][34]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 11. mailto:[30][31][34][35]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>> 12. mailto:[31][32][35][36]chair at lp.org
>> 13. mailto:[32][33][36][37]carynannharlos at gmail.com
>> 14. [33][34][37][38]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 15. mailto:[34][35][38][39]chair at lp.org
>> 16. mailto:[35][36][39][40]carynannharlos at gmail.com
>> 17. mailto:[36]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 18. [37][37][40][41]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> References
> 1. mailto:[38][41][42]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 2. mailto:[39][42][43]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 3.
[40][43][44]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.
html
> 4. mailto:[41][44][45]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 5. mailto:[42][45][46]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 6. mailto:[43][46][47]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 7. mailto:[44][47][48]chair at lp.org
> 8. mailto:[45][48][49]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 9. [46][49][50]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 10. mailto:[47][50][51]chair at lp.org
> 11. mailto:[48][51][52]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 12. [49][52][53]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 13. mailto:[50][53][54]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 14. mailto:[51][54][55]chair at lp.org
> 15. mailto:[52][55][56]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 16. [53][56][57]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 17. mailto:[54][57][58]chair at lp.org
> 18. mailto:[55][58][59]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 19. [56][59][60]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 20.
[57][60][61]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.
html
> 21. mailto:[58][61][62]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 22. mailto:[59][62][63]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 23. mailto:[60][63][64]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 24. mailto:[61][64][65]chair at lp.org
> 25. mailto:[62][65][66]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 26. [63][66][67]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 27. mailto:[64][67][68]chair at lp.org
> 28. mailto:[65][68][69]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 29. [66][69][70]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 30. mailto:[67][70][71]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 31. mailto:[68][71][72]chair at lp.org
> 32. mailto:[69][72][73]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 33. [70][73][74]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 34. mailto:[71][74][75]chair at lp.org
> 35. mailto:[72][75][76]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 36. mailto:[73]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> 37. [74][76][77]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[77][78]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 2. mailto:[78][79]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 3. mailto:[79][80]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 4. [80][81]https://www.kidlink.org/
docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 5. mailto:[81][82]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 6. mailto:[82][83]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:[83][84]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 8. mailto:[84][85]chair at lp.org
> 9. mailto:[85][86]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 10. [86][87]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 11. mailto:[87][88]chair at lp.org
> 12. mailto:[88][89]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 13. [89][90]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 14. mailto:[90][91]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 15. mailto:[91][92]chair at lp.org
> 16. mailto:[92][93]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 17. [93][94]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 18. mailto:[94][95]chair at lp.org
> 19. mailto:[95][96]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 20. [96][97]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 21. [97][98]https://www.kidlink.org/
docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 22. mailto:[98][99]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 23. mailto:[99][100]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 24. mailto:[100][101]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 25. mailto:[101][102]chair at lp.org
> 26. mailto:[102][103]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 27. [103][104]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 28. mailto:[104][105]chair at lp.org
> 29. mailto:[105][106]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 30. [106][107]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 31. mailto:[107][108]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 32. mailto:[108][109]chair at lp.org
> 33. mailto:[109][110]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 34. [110][111]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 35. mailto:[111][112]chair at lp.org
> 36. mailto:[112][113]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 37. [113][114]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 38. mailto:[114][115]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 39. mailto:[115][116]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 40. [116][117]https://www.kidlink.org/
docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 41. mailto:[117][118]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 42. mailto:[118][119]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 43. mailto:[119][120]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 44. mailto:[120][121]chair at lp.org
> 45. mailto:[121][122]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 46. [122][123]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 47. mailto:[123][124]chair at lp.org
> 48. mailto:[124][125]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 49. [125][126]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 50. mailto:[126][127]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 51. mailto:[127][128]chair at lp.org
> 52. mailto:[128][129]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 53. [129][130]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 54. mailto:[130][131]chair at lp.org
> 55. mailto:[131][132]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 56. [132][133]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 57. [133][134]https://www.kidlink.org/
docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
> 58. mailto:[134][135]daniel.hayes at lp.org
> 59. mailto:[135][136]planning4liberty at gmail.com
> 60. mailto:[136][137]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 61. mailto:[137][138]chair at lp.org
> 62. mailto:[138][139]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 63. [139][140]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 64. mailto:[140][141]chair at lp.org
> 65. mailto:[141][142]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 66. [142][143]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 67. mailto:[143][144]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
> 68. mailto:[144][145]chair at lp.org
> 69. mailto:[145][146]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 70. [146][147]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
> 71. mailto:[147][148]chair at lp.org
> 72. mailto:[148][149]carynannharlos at gmail.com
> 73. mailto:[149]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> 74. [150][150]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
References
1. mailto:[151]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
2. mailto:[152]daniel.hayes at lp.org
3. mailto:[153]planning4liberty at gmail.com
4. mailto:[154]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
5. mailto:[155]daniel.hayes at lp.org
6. mailto:[156]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
7. [157]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
8. mailto:[158]daniel.hayes at lp.org
9. mailto:[159]planning4liberty at gmail.com
10. mailto:[160]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
11. mailto:[161]chair at lp.org
12. mailto:[162]carynannharlos at gmail.com
13. [163]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
14. mailto:[164]chair at lp.org
15. mailto:[165]carynannharlos at gmail.com
16. [166]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
17. mailto:[167]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
18. mailto:[168]chair at lp.org
19. mailto:[169]carynannharlos at gmail.com
20. [170]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
21. mailto:[171]chair at lp.org
22. mailto:[172]carynannharlos at gmail.com
23. [173]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
24. [174]https://www.kidlink.org/
25. mailto:[175]daniel.hayes at lp.org
26. mailto:[176]planning4liberty at gmail.com
27. mailto:[177]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
28. mailto:[178]chair at lp.org
29. mailto:[179]carynannharlos at gmail.com
30. [180]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
31. mailto:[181]chair at lp.org
32. mailto:[182]carynannharlos at gmail.com
33. [183]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
34. mailto:[184]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
35. mailto:[185]chair at lp.org
36. mailto:[186]carynannharlos at gmail.com
37. [187]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
38. mailto:[188]chair at lp.org
39. mailto:[189]carynannharlos at gmail.com
40. [190]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
41. mailto:[191]daniel.hayes at lp.org
42. mailto:[192]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
43. [193]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
44. mailto:[194]daniel.hayes at lp.org
45. mailto:[195]planning4liberty at gmail.com
46. mailto:[196]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
47. mailto:[197]chair at lp.org
48. mailto:[198]carynannharlos at gmail.com
49. [199]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
50. mailto:[200]chair at lp.org
51. mailto:[201]carynannharlos at gmail.com
52. [202]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
53. mailto:[203]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
54. mailto:[204]chair at lp.org
55. mailto:[205]carynannharlos at gmail.com
56. [206]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
57. mailto:[207]chair at lp.org
58. mailto:[208]carynannharlos at gmail.com
59. [209]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
60. [210]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
61. mailto:[211]daniel.hayes at lp.org
62. mailto:[212]planning4liberty at gmail.com
63. mailto:[213]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
64. mailto:[214]chair at lp.org
65. mailto:[215]carynannharlos at gmail.com
66. [216]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
67. mailto:[217]chair at lp.org
68. mailto:[218]carynannharlos at gmail.com
69. [219]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
70. mailto:[220]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
71. mailto:[221]chair at lp.org
72. mailto:[222]carynannharlos at gmail.com
73. [223]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
74. mailto:[224]chair at lp.org
75. mailto:[225]carynannharlos at gmail.com
76. [226]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
77. mailto:[227]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
78. mailto:[228]daniel.hayes at lp.org
79. mailto:[229]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
80. [230]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
81. mailto:[231]daniel.hayes at lp.org
82. mailto:[232]planning4liberty at gmail.com
83. mailto:[233]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
84. mailto:[234]chair at lp.org
85. mailto:[235]carynannharlos at gmail.com
86. [236]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
87. mailto:[237]chair at lp.org
88. mailto:[238]carynannharlos at gmail.com
89. [239]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
90. mailto:[240]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
91. mailto:[241]chair at lp.org
92. mailto:[242]carynannharlos at gmail.com
93. [243]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
94. mailto:[244]chair at lp.org
95. mailto:[245]carynannharlos at gmail.com
96. [246]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
97. [247]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
98. mailto:[248]daniel.hayes at lp.org
99. mailto:[249]planning4liberty at gmail.com
100. mailto:[250]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
101. mailto:[251]chair at lp.org
102. mailto:[252]carynannharlos at gmail.com
103. [253]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
104. mailto:[254]chair at lp.org
105. mailto:[255]carynannharlos at gmail.com
106. [256]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
107. mailto:[257]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
108. mailto:[258]chair at lp.org
109. mailto:[259]carynannharlos at gmail.com
110. [260]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
111. mailto:[261]chair at lp.org
112. mailto:[262]carynannharlos at gmail.com
113. [263]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
114. mailto:[264]daniel.hayes at lp.org
115. mailto:[265]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
116. [266]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
117. mailto:[267]daniel.hayes at lp.org
118. mailto:[268]planning4liberty at gmail.com
119. mailto:[269]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
120. mailto:[270]chair at lp.org
121. mailto:[271]carynannharlos at gmail.com
122. [272]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
123. mailto:[273]chair at lp.org
124. mailto:[274]carynannharlos at gmail.com
125. [275]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
126. mailto:[276]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
127. mailto:[277]chair at lp.org
128. mailto:[278]carynannharlos at gmail.com
129. [279]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
130. mailto:[280]chair at lp.org
131. mailto:[281]carynannharlos at gmail.com
132. [282]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
133. [283]https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
134. mailto:[284]daniel.hayes at lp.org
135. mailto:[285]planning4liberty at gmail.com
136. mailto:[286]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
137. mailto:[287]chair at lp.org
138. mailto:[288]carynannharlos at gmail.com
139. [289]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
140. mailto:[290]chair at lp.org
141. mailto:[291]carynannharlos at gmail.com
142. [292]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
143. mailto:[293]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
144. mailto:[294]chair at lp.org
145. mailto:[295]carynannharlos at gmail.com
146. [296]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
147. mailto:[297]chair at lp.org
148. mailto:[298]carynannharlos at gmail.com
149. mailto:[299]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
150. [300]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
References
1. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
2. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
3. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
4. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
5. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
6. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
7. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
8. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
9. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
10. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
11. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
12. mailto:chair at lp.org
13. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
14. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
15. mailto:chair at lp.org
16. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
17. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
18. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
19. mailto:chair at lp.org
20. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
21. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
22. mailto:chair at lp.org
23. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
24. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
25. https://www.kidlink.org/
26. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
27. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
28. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
29. mailto:chair at lp.org
30. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
31. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
32. mailto:chair at lp.org
33. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
34. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
35. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
36. mailto:chair at lp.org
37. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
38. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
39. mailto:chair at lp.org
40. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
41. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
42. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
43. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
44. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
45. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
46. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
47. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
48. mailto:chair at lp.org
49. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
50. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
51. mailto:chair at lp.org
52. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
53. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
54. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
55. mailto:chair at lp.org
56. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
57. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
58. mailto:chair at lp.org
59. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
60. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
61. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
62. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
63. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
64. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
65. mailto:chair at lp.org
66. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
67. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
68. mailto:chair at lp.org
69. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
70. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
71. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
72. mailto:chair at lp.org
73. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
74. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
75. mailto:chair at lp.org
76. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
77. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
78. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
79. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
80. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
81. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
82. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
83. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
84. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
85. mailto:chair at lp.org
86. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
87. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
88. mailto:chair at lp.org
89. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
90. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
91. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
92. mailto:chair at lp.org
93. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
94. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
95. mailto:chair at lp.org
96. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
97. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
98. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
99. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
100. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
101. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
102. mailto:chair at lp.org
103. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
104. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
105. mailto:chair at lp.org
106. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
107. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
108. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
109. mailto:chair at lp.org
110. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
111. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
112. mailto:chair at lp.org
113. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
114. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
115. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
116. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
117. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
118. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
119. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
120. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
121. mailto:chair at lp.org
122. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
123. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
124. mailto:chair at lp.org
125. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
126. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
127. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
128. mailto:chair at lp.org
129. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
130. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
131. mailto:chair at lp.org
132. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
133. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
134. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
135. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
136. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
137. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
138. mailto:chair at lp.org
139. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
140. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
141. mailto:chair at lp.org
142. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
143. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
144. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
145. mailto:chair at lp.org
146. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
147. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
148. mailto:chair at lp.org
149. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
150. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
151. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
152. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
153. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
154. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
155. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
156. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
157. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
158. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
159. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
160. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
161. mailto:chair at lp.org
162. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
163. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
164. mailto:chair at lp.org
165. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
166. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
167. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
168. mailto:chair at lp.org
169. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
170. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
171. mailto:chair at lp.org
172. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
173. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
174. https://www.kidlink.org/
175. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
176. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
177. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
178. mailto:chair at lp.org
179. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
180. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
181. mailto:chair at lp.org
182. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
183. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
184. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
185. mailto:chair at lp.org
186. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
187. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
188. mailto:chair at lp.org
189. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
190. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
191. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
192. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
193. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
194. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
195. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
196. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
197. mailto:chair at lp.org
198. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
199. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
200. mailto:chair at lp.org
201. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
202. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
203. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
204. mailto:chair at lp.org
205. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
206. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
207. mailto:chair at lp.org
208. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
209. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
210. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
211. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
212. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
213. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
214. mailto:chair at lp.org
215. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
216. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
217. mailto:chair at lp.org
218. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
219. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
220. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
221. mailto:chair at lp.org
222. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
223. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
224. mailto:chair at lp.org
225. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
226. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
227. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
228. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
229. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
230. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
231. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
232. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
233. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
234. mailto:chair at lp.org
235. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
236. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
237. mailto:chair at lp.org
238. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
239. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
240. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
241. mailto:chair at lp.org
242. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
243. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
244. mailto:chair at lp.org
245. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
246. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
247. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
248. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
249. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
250. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
251. mailto:chair at lp.org
252. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
253. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
254. mailto:chair at lp.org
255. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
256. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
257. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
258. mailto:chair at lp.org
259. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
260. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
261. mailto:chair at lp.org
262. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
263. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
264. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
265. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
266. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
267. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
268. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
269. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
270. mailto:chair at lp.org
271. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
272. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
273. mailto:chair at lp.org
274. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
275. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
276. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
277. mailto:chair at lp.org
278. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
279. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
280. mailto:chair at lp.org
281. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
282. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
283. https://www.kidlink.org/docs/RobertRules/chap15.html
284. mailto:daniel.hayes at lp.org
285. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
286. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
287. mailto:chair at lp.org
288. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
289. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
290. mailto:chair at lp.org
291. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
292. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
293. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
294. mailto:chair at lp.org
295. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
296. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
297. mailto:chair at lp.org
298. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
299. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
300. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
More information about the Lnc-business
mailing list