[Lnc-business] A hypothetical question
Caryn Ann Harlos
caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
Mon Feb 26 23:42:53 EST 2018
Okay thanks for getting the discussion started, and I want to clear up any
confusion I may have inadvertently inserted.
First, like I openly stated in my opening email I am asking questions about
hypotheticals on the LNC because I am seeking insights from many people
that could be in similar circumstances to be sure I have thought of every
angle on an issue on the Platform Committee. If anyone wants the specifics
of that, please write me. The situation is not exactly parallel to the
questions I asked here but similar enough for me to understand how eveyrone
would see certain principles.
My first question:
==Do our Bylaws allow or even contemplate that one person could be a
regional rep for one state and an alternate for another? And what are
they? Both? The “superior” position?==
I asked about our Bylaws. Ms. Mattson pointed out a historical situation I
was previously made aware of, but that isn't the specific scenario I gave
here which was specific, *can a person be a regional rep for one region and
an alternate for another separate region. *
Mr. Katz responded: == I don't see anything in the bylaws saying a person
could not be both, which leads me to conclude that it is permitted. ==
I would ask here then why has that never happened? It seems to me that the
Bylaws do not mention it because it is inherently incoherent and defies the
entire purpose of an alternate which is to be available if their primary is
not present. Incoherent or absurd interpretations do not seem to me to be
the intent of a rule. So, next convention, could I run for Region 1 rep,
At Large, Secretary, and Region 7 alternate and on the unlikely chance that
delegates were foolish enough to pick that, you really are arguing that our
Bylaws are okay with that? Is there not a presumption of sense of purpose?
The historical situation was a mid-term vacancy in which a present regional
rep was appointed as Treasurer. It is my fault for not being clear I am
referring to elections at convention. Can a regional representative run
for Treasurer too? This actually is a very pertinent question as a state
chair suggested I run for region 1 and an officer position which I told him
was not possible even if I were crazy enough to do it. But am I wrong? Do
I have that option? Can anyone really say that is what our Bylaws really
meant? If so then our Bylaws need to be significantly longer because all
kinds of absurd interpretations result. Now I can think of a contrary
argument - normally I would say if it doesn't say it is allowed, it is
not. That is the commonsense approach. Joshua you seem to be arguing that
if it isn't forbidden it is permitted. What is the justification for
that? Does not context, intent, and history matter? I am not a conjoined
twin. An officer has different and potentially conflicting
responsibilities. When absurd output comes out of input, that is a clear
clue the input is false. But here is a piece of contrary evidence, our
Bylaws do say that officers MUST be separate people. So if it is says it
there and doesn't say it in another place after it demonstrated that it was
aware of the possibility that grants your position weight Joshua. And if
that is the case, our Bylaws have a huge problem, and now I have another
option to consider - instead of declaring for one or the other, as the meme
goes, why not both? I don't think even 1% of our membership would think
that is at all what was ever intended. Theoretically then all of the
Regionals could be one person? If not, why not? You can confine your
answer to elections at conventions not mid-term appointments because that
was my intent.
So to continue with my questions:
==Also - if assuming the answer to paragraph one is yes - theoretically
could an at-large or regional also be an officer? Is that something our
Bylaws intended to allow? ==
Again that was meant for at convention rather than some dastardly
concealment of the fact that I am aware that a mid-term appointment
historically happened as Ms. Mattson alleged. But let's speak to that
historical appointment. It happened, was it right? What was the
justification? Not everything the LNC does is right, but it is indeed a
precedent.
That leads to the crux of my question:
==If so, how would that work in an email vote?==
Okay let's say I am Region 1 Representative and Region 8 Alternate and that
is allowed (which to be clear I think is an absurdity that our Bylaws never
contemplated and utterly defeats the purpose of an alternate). There is an
email ballot. When do I have to declare what capacity I am voting as?
Before voting starts? At any time? Can I withdraw my vote as one position
and then turn around and vote as the other?
Let's look at these various scenarios:
*Before Voting Starts*
If we grant I can hold both seats, then that makes sense. It raises issue
of procedure but that is a separate issue.
*At any time? (and this is the most directly parallel to the situation on
the Platform Committee)*
That would give me a tactical advantage that no one else has and the
previously cited RONR passage of one person, one vote gives us guidance in
both letter and spirit. The reason for that is a foundation of fairness
and proper representation. In fact all of Robert's has that as a
foundation. Protection of people and rights.
The rest of the assembly has a right not to have one member have an
inherent tactical advantage that others members do not and cannot have.
How so?
Well I could wait to see how the Region 1 alternate votes. And if I like
that vote, and the Region 8 primary has not yet voted, I can gamble that
they won't and amplify my preference. No one else can do that. It is
patently absurd and unfair.
*Can I withdraw my vote as one position and then turn around and vote as
the other? (this is also directly parallel to the question on the Platform
Committee)*
What if then the Region 1 alternate changes their mind and changes their
vote to something I don't like. Can I then withdraw my vote as Region 8
alternate and assert my seat as Region 1 primary MID VOTE??? There is a
big problem there, and I would like to see that answered.
And this shows how this turns the purpose of an alternate on its head. And
what I had the Region 8 alternate position first, then got the Region 1
primary position later and Region 8 was not made explicitly aware of this
so that they consented to the compromise of their use of their alternate?
_________________________________________________
Counter arguments have been made that there are planned for possible
inequities in the system. Why does the maker of a motion get to speak
first? Etc. But *that is available to everyone similarly situated.* That
is a common theme in law, and I see no reason to believe parliamentary law
is any different.
I hope in seeing what I am struggling with, I have shown that any
accusation that I am "s attempting to deprive someone of their voting
rights, and deprive an appointing body of its choice of representative" is
a completely unacceptable attack.
I see a situation and I am trying to resolve it to protect *everyone.*
We really need to stop in this Party jumping to the worst possible
speculations on motives.
Joshua, I deeply respect your insights and your manner. I would truly like
to hear what you have to say. I have consulted early on with Richard Brown
on this but I will be giving him these extra details too as I have groked
it more.
As I see it there are two issues:
1. When must the hat be declared?
2. Can the hat be changed mid-vote?
Thoughts?
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
wrote:
> And I see Joshua (and perhaps to others) that the background and lead up
> to my question seems to have obscured the ultimate question.
>
> I will be more clear a bit later.
>
> But I do refer everyone to the part of my email where I said clearly said
> my reason for asking.
>
> There is a real situation - though not on all fours exact - that has some
> points of comparison to a hypothetical here.
>
> And I would ask that Ms. Mattson not personally attack me in my actual
> desire to be sure we come to a good conclusion. That was absolutely and
> utterly uncalled for.
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:39 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> And Alicia that was unwarranted. Please do not impugn my motives or make
>> this personal.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:38 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Joshua I’m running out but I have some questions to ask,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:37 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <
>>> caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was clear exactly why I asked Alicia.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:51 PM Joshua Katz <planning4liberty at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ms. Mattson's response makes clearer to me why it matters how the
>>>>> vote
>>>>> is counted. Given that, I would conclude that the system the LNC
>>>>> used
>>>>> is correct, and the member should specify in which capacity they are
>>>>> voting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joshua A. Katz
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:47 PM, Joshua Katz
>>>>> <[1]planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see anything in the bylaws saying a person could not be
>>>>> both,
>>>>> which leads me to conclude that it is permitted. However, the
>>>>> fundamental rule applicable is that of "one person, one vote," not
>>>>> "one
>>>>> position, one vote." Hence, such a person could not vote twice.
>>>>> So,
>>>>> on an email ballot, supposing they cast a vote (say, "aye,") it
>>>>> will be
>>>>> counted only once. Should the rep for whom they are an alternate
>>>>> vote,
>>>>> that's clear anyway. Should that rep not vote, the point is that
>>>>> their
>>>>> vote cannot count for both the region they represent and the region
>>>>> they alternate for. I don't see that it matters, mathematically,
>>>>> which
>>>>> one they count for - the real variable is whether the rep votes,
>>>>> which
>>>>> is not under the control of this rep/alternate.
>>>>> As for "what are they," well, clearly (unlike an alternate) this
>>>>> person
>>>>> is an LNC member, with all that entails. For example, they could
>>>>> not
>>>>> assert their alternate status and serve in a position not otherwise
>>>>> open to an LNC member.
>>>>> Regarding officers, I think the same thing applies. I have no idea
>>>>> if
>>>>> the bylaws intend that outcome or not, but I don't see any
>>>>> ambiguity in
>>>>> which to resort to intent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joshua A. Katz
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>>>>> <[2]carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hypothetical question:
>>>>> Do our Bylaws allow or even contemplate that one person could
>>>>> be
>>>>> a
>>>>> regional rep for one state and an alternate for another? And
>>>>> what are
>>>>> they? Both? The “superior” position?
>>>>> If so, how would that work in an email vote?
>>>>> There are multiple practical issues.
>>>>> Yes I am asking because a similar issue has come up on platcomm
>>>>> and
>>>>> will be the subject of a future meeting and many minds and
>>>>> opinions can
>>>>> lead to insights. How the LNC would hypothetically handle
>>>>> would
>>>>> be a
>>>>> helpful piece of information. The parallels are not exact but
>>>>> would
>>>>> give insight.
>>>>> Also - if assuming the answer to paragraph one is yes -
>>>>> theoretically
>>>>> could an at-large or regional also be an officer? Is that
>>>>> something
>>>>> our Bylaws intended to allow?
>>>>> Any and all insight appreciated.
>>>>> I would be more than happy to detail what issues of fundamental
>>>>> inequity present themselves when dealing with email voting in
>>>>> my
>>>>> first
>>>>> hypothetical.
>>>>> --
>>>>> In Liberty,
>>>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>>>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>>>>> (Alaska,
>>>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
>>>>> Washington)
>>>>> - [1]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>>>>> Communications Director, [2]Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>>>>> We defend your rights
>>>>> And oppose the use of force
>>>>> Taxation is theft
>>>>> References
>>>>> 1. mailto:[3]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>>>> 2. [4]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> References
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
>>>>> 2. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
>>>>> 3. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>>>> 4. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
-------------- next part --------------
Okay thanks for getting the discussion started, and I want to clear up
any confusion I may have inadvertently inserted.
First, like I openly stated in my opening email I am asking questions
about hypotheticals on the LNC because I am seeking insights from many
people that could be in similar circumstances to be sure I have thought
of every angle on an issue on the Platform Committee. If anyone wants
the specifics of that, please write me. The situation is not exactly
parallel to the questions I asked here but similar enough for me to
understand how eveyrone would see certain principles.
My first question:
==Do our Bylaws allow or even contemplate that one person could be a
regional rep for one state and an alternate for another? And what are
they? Both? The “superior” position?==
I asked about our Bylaws. Ms. Mattson pointed out a historical
situation I was previously made aware of, but that isn't the specific
scenario I gave here which was specific, can a person be a regional rep
for one region and an alternate for another separate region.
Mr. Katz responded: == I don't see anything in the bylaws saying a
person could not be both, which leads me to conclude that it is
permitted. ==
I would ask here then why has that never happened? It seems to me that
the Bylaws do not mention it because it is inherently incoherent and
defies the entire purpose of an alternate which is to be available if
their primary is not present. Incoherent or absurd interpretations do
not seem to me to be the intent of a rule. So, next convention, could
I run for Region 1 rep, At Large, Secretary, and Region 7 alternate and
on the unlikely chance that delegates were foolish enough to pick that,
you really are arguing that our Bylaws are okay with that? Is there
not a presumption of sense of purpose?
The historical situation was a mid-term vacancy in which a present
regional rep was appointed as Treasurer. It is my fault for not being
clear I am referring to elections at convention. Can a regional
representative run for Treasurer too? This actually is a very
pertinent question as a state chair suggested I run for region 1 and an
officer position which I told him was not possible even if I were crazy
enough to do it. But am I wrong? Do I have that option? Can anyone
really say that is what our Bylaws really meant? If so then our Bylaws
need to be significantly longer because all kinds of absurd
interpretations result. Now I can think of a contrary argument -
normally I would say if it doesn't say it is allowed, it is not. That
is the commonsense approach. Joshua you seem to be arguing that if it
isn't forbidden it is permitted. What is the justification for that?
Does not context, intent, and history matter? I am not a conjoined
twin. An officer has different and potentially conflicting
responsibilities. When absurd output comes out of input, that is a
clear clue the input is false. But here is a piece of contrary
evidence, our Bylaws do say that officers MUST be separate people. So
if it is says it there and doesn't say it in another place after it
demonstrated that it was aware of the possibility that grants your
position weight Joshua. And if that is the case, our Bylaws have a
huge problem, and now I have another option to consider - instead of
declaring for one or the other, as the meme goes, why not both? I
don't think even 1% of our membership would think that is at all what
was ever intended. Theoretically then all of the Regionals could be
one person? If not, why not? You can confine your answer to
elections at conventions not mid-term appointments because that was my
intent.
So to continue with my questions:
==Also - if assuming the answer to paragraph one is yes - theoretically
could an at-large or regional also be an officer? Is that something
our Bylaws intended to allow? ==
Again that was meant for at convention rather than some dastardly
concealment of the fact that I am aware that a mid-term appointment
historically happened as Ms. Mattson alleged. But let's speak to that
historical appointment. It happened, was it right? What was the
justification? Not everything the LNC does is right, but it is indeed
a precedent.
That leads to the crux of my question:
==If so, how would that work in an email vote?==
Okay let's say I am Region 1 Representative and Region 8 Alternate and
that is allowed (which to be clear I think is an absurdity that our
Bylaws never contemplated and utterly defeats the purpose of an
alternate). There is an email ballot. When do I have to declare what
capacity I am voting as? Before voting starts? At any time? Can I
withdraw my vote as one position and then turn around and vote as the
other?
Let's look at these various scenarios:
Before Voting Starts
If we grant I can hold both seats, then that makes sense. It raises
issue of procedure but that is a separate issue.
At any time? (and this is the most directly parallel to the situation
on the Platform Committee)
That would give me a tactical advantage that no one else has and the
previously cited RONR passage of one person, one vote gives us guidance
in both letter and spirit. The reason for that is a foundation of
fairness and proper representation. In fact all of Robert's has that
as a foundation. Protection of people and rights.
The rest of the assembly has a right not to have one member have an
inherent tactical advantage that others members do not and cannot
have. How so?
Well I could wait to see how the Region 1 alternate votes. And if I
like that vote, and the Region 8 primary has not yet voted, I can
gamble that they won't and amplify my preference. No one else can do
that. It is patently absurd and unfair.
Can I withdraw my vote as one position and then turn around and vote as
the other? (this is also directly parallel to the question on the
Platform Committee)
What if then the Region 1 alternate changes their mind and changes
their vote to something I don't like. Can I then withdraw my vote as
Region 8 alternate and assert my seat as Region 1 primary MID VOTE???
There is a big problem there, and I would like to see that answered.
And this shows how this turns the purpose of an alternate on its head.
And what I had the Region 8 alternate position first, then got the
Region 1 primary position later and Region 8 was not made explicitly
aware of this so that they consented to the compromise of their use of
their alternate?
_________________________________________________
Counter arguments have been made that there are planned for possible
inequities in the system. Why does the maker of a motion get to speak
first? Etc. But that is available to everyone similarly situated.
That is a common theme in law, and I see no reason to believe
parliamentary law is any different.
I hope in seeing what I am struggling with, I have shown that any
accusation that I am "s attempting to deprive someone of their voting
rights, and deprive an appointing body of its choice of
representative" is a completely unacceptable attack.
I see a situation and I am trying to resolve it to protect everyone.
We really need to stop in this Party jumping to the worst possible
speculations on motives.
Joshua, I deeply respect your insights and your manner. I would truly
like to hear what you have to say. I have consulted early on with
Richard Brown on this but I will be giving him these extra details too
as I have groked it more.
As I see it there are two issues:
1. When must the hat be declared?
2. Can the hat be changed mid-vote?
Thoughts?
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
<[1]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
And I see Joshua (and perhaps to others) that the background and lead
up to my question seems to have obscured the ultimate question.
I will be more clear a bit later.
But I do refer everyone to the part of my email where I said clearly
said my reason for asking.
There is a real situation - though not on all fours exact - that has
some points of comparison to a hypothetical here.
And I would ask that Ms. Mattson not personally attack me in my actual
desire to be sure we come to a good conclusion. That was absolutely
and utterly uncalled for.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:39 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[2]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
And Alicia that was unwarranted. Please do not impugn my motives or
make this personal.
Thank you.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:38 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[3]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
Joshua I’m running out but I have some questions to ask,
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:37 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[4]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
I was clear exactly why I asked Alicia.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:51 PM Joshua Katz
<[5]planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
Ms. Mattson's response makes clearer to me why it matters how the
vote
is counted. Given that, I would conclude that the system the LNC
used
is correct, and the member should specify in which capacity they
are
voting.
Joshua A. Katz
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:47 PM, Joshua Katz
<[1][6]planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
I don't see anything in the bylaws saying a person could not be
both,
which leads me to conclude that it is permitted. However, the
fundamental rule applicable is that of "one person, one vote,"
not "one
position, one vote." Hence, such a person could not vote twice.
So,
on an email ballot, supposing they cast a vote (say, "aye,") it
will be
counted only once. Should the rep for whom they are an alternate
vote,
that's clear anyway. Should that rep not vote, the point is that
their
vote cannot count for both the region they represent and the
region
they alternate for. I don't see that it matters, mathematically,
which
one they count for - the real variable is whether the rep votes,
which
is not under the control of this rep/alternate.
As for "what are they," well, clearly (unlike an alternate) this
person
is an LNC member, with all that entails. For example, they could
not
assert their alternate status and serve in a position not
otherwise
open to an LNC member.
Regarding officers, I think the same thing applies. I have no
idea if
the bylaws intend that outcome or not, but I don't see any
ambiguity in
which to resort to intent.
Joshua A. Katz
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
<[2][7]carynannharlos at gmail.com> wrote:
Hypothetical question:
Do our Bylaws allow or even contemplate that one person
could be
a
regional rep for one state and an alternate for another?
And
what are
they? Both? The “superior” position?
If so, how would that work in an email vote?
There are multiple practical issues.
Yes I am asking because a similar issue has come up on
platcomm
and
will be the subject of a future meeting and many minds and
opinions can
lead to insights. How the LNC would hypothetically handle
would
be a
helpful piece of information. The parallels are not exact
but
would
give insight.
Also - if assuming the answer to paragraph one is yes -
theoretically
could an at-large or regional also be an officer? Is that
something
our Bylaws intended to allow?
Any and all insight appreciated.
I would be more than happy to detail what issues of
fundamental
inequity present themselves when dealing with email voting
in my
first
hypothetical.
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee
(Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
Washington)
- [1]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [2]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:[3]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
2. [4][8]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
References
1. mailto:[9]planning4liberty at gmail.com
2. mailto:[10]carynannharlos at gmail.com
3. mailto:[11]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
4. [12]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
References
1. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
2. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
3. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
4. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
5. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
6. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
7. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
8. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
9. mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com
10. mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com
11. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
12. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
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