[Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-12: INDEPENDENT AUDIT OF AT-LARGE VOTE RESULTS
Caryn Ann Harlos
caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
Thu Jul 12 09:46:27 EDT 2018
I waited a few moments for a response. Joe, I never intended to insinuate
you or anyone (but particularly you) were a "monster" for not immediately
supporting. Please don't mistake passion for insult. This seems (to me)
to be a very classic case of what we would immediately pounce on in
others. There is something in religious circles (past LNC members know
that I just can't help myself from religious references) called "witness."
I think the LP loses its witness to the world if we don't hold ourselves to
the same audit standards we hold others. Imagine if Trump won some state
by one vote and the Trump team audited it. What would we think? It isn't
a matter of trusting Alicia - truth be told, I trust Alicia as much as I
trust myself but we have a duty to not dismiss our members.
As far as growing the Party, we are about to lose a multi-decade activist
and candidate over this. Part of growing the Party is retaining activists
and candidates. We can't afford to lose people over things that I think
they really have a point with. We should never give anyone an excuse to
say "what Party are we in?"
I would support a separate motion to audit JC. Supporting thing one does
not preclude that. This is the one with the very narrow margins but all
votes should be independently audited.
On a related note, I have done a very limited audit of the 2006 Platform
votes. Some of the margins were less than 1%. I have found errors that
could have changed the results. They were never audited. I don't think
there was any funny business. But when I finish that project I bet there
are people who will. We need to be above reproach.
All of us discharge our duties in different ways. I am, and will remain,
ferocious for member rights. Never can the discussions be taken
personally. That would be an abrogation of our duties... in my opinion. I
do think what is being done is an abject overreach.
-Caryn Ann
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:34 AM, Richard Longstreth via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> Region 1 votes yes and urges others to do the same.
>
> ===
>
> I am disappointed to read that there is a vote against this based
> primarily on how one member feels they were treated by the rest of the
> LNC. That is not how we should vote. No further explanation should be
> needed. Be good to each other but don't let personal conflicts
> interfere with your duty to the membership.
>
> To Mr. Bishop-Henchman's other points, I believe that while this ballot
> only does this for this one ballot, it is the beginning of a change in
> the LNC. I fully support this and ALL measures to independently audit
> ALL ballots. To vote no on this one because it doesn't go far enough
> seems short-sighted. As libertarians, we need to take wins for
> transparency where we can get them. This is one of those times.
>
> Second, I have seen the tally sheets, not the ballots, provided by Ms
> Matteson. An independent audit is not moot. Even if all ballots are
> emailed out, I still think it imperative that someone be assigned to
> audit and report to the LNC the results. It is not enough to say that
> information is out there, therefore there is no point in verifying or
> doing more. Imagine if that's how we treated campaigns - we wouldn't
> support candidates because all the information they need is out there
> on the internet, ergo they don't need anything from the LNC/LP.
> Ridiculous logic albeit illustrated by fallacy. If this were a local
> election against one of our LP candidates and circumstances were
> similar, we would all be pushing like mad to have an audit done. This
> is absolutely no different.
>
> RTL
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 05:49 Joe Bishop-Henchman via Lnc-business
> <[1]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
> My vote is no, for three independent reasons.
> First, while I would support an audit of all results as a matter
> of
> regular practice, that's not what this motion does. It singles
> out one
> race, this one time. It therefore sends the message that we think
> the
> problem with our elections is *inaccurate tabulation* in one
> race,
> rather than systemic problems, choice of voting system,
> scheduling and
> labor usage, and avoidance of technological solutions. While this
> motion does not foreclose those discussions, it distracts from
> them.
> Doing elections the way we do them, plus an audit, solves
> nothing.
> Second, this motion is moot. Ms. Mattson has already shown her
> work,
> perhaps because she would have anyway or perhaps because this
> motion
> was coming. But if Ms. Mattson rigged the election, this audit
> ain't
> gonna find it. (She also should have rigged it to give herself
> more
> than a 1-vote margin.) In retrospect, Ms. Mattson and Mr. Starr
> probably should have recused themselves from counting the
> Secretary's
> race, although my sense is that the army of tellers double
> checking
> everything limited the ability to rig the results. More
> information on
> our procedures there would be helpful but this motion doesn't do
> that.
> The At-Large race is harder, since our voting method makes it
> very
> labor intensive to count and very few people in the room are
> totally
> disinterested in the race to be considered independent to be able
> to
> count it above reproach. I think it would be fruitful to have
> those
> discussions and adopt recusal standards for the future, but
> again, this
> motion doesn't do that.
> Third, this motion does nothing to grow our Party, nothing to
> allow us
> to move forward to focus on goals and plans, nothing to elect and
> re-elect Libertarians. I won't co-sponsor anything that doesn't
> do one
> of those or more of those things. This doesn't even do any of
> those
> things indirectly or tangentially: it's backward looking, pending
> because we must refute some rumor on Facebook or from one or two
> regions. We can easily spend all our time doing that, spending
> attention and resources trying to refute every conspiracy theory
> we may
> hear. Or we can act to grow and plan and elect, and be judged on
> the
> quality and the results. I also don't appreciate Ms. Harlos's
> repeated
> haranguing about why I'm a monster for not immediately
> co-sponsoring
> this proposal, or Ms. Adams' yesterday description of my proposal
> as
> "bullshit," "unacceptable," "gross," "vile," and "sickening" that
> I
> have yet to hear any sponsor of this condemn despite repeated
> discussions of tone and decorum, or the email exchange of
> accusations
> and counter-accusations last night that I find childish and
> embarrassing. Those tactics lose my vote, and the only way for
> that to
> be clear for the future is if I vote no now.
> JBH
>
> --
>
> Richard Longstreth
> Region 1 Representative (AK, AZ, CO, KS, MT, NM, OR, HI, UT, WA, WY)
> Libertarian National Committee
> [2]richard.longstreth at lp.org
> 931.538.9300
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 2. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>
--
--
*In Liberty,*
*Caryn Ann Harlos*
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary - Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
*We defend your rights*
*And oppose the use of force*
*Taxation is theft*
-------------- next part --------------
I waited a few moments for a response. Joe, I never intended to
insinuate you or anyone (but particularly you) were a "monster" for not
immediately supporting. Please don't mistake passion for insult. This
seems (to me) to be a very classic case of what we would immediately
pounce on in others. There is something in religious circles (past LNC
members know that I just can't help myself from religious references)
called "witness." I think the LP loses its witness to the world if we
don't hold ourselves to the same audit standards we hold others.
Imagine if Trump won some state by one vote and the Trump team audited
it. What would we think? It isn't a matter of trusting Alicia - truth
be told, I trust Alicia as much as I trust myself but we have a duty
to not dismiss our members.
As far as growing the Party, we are about to lose a multi-decade
activist and candidate over this. Part of growing the Party is
retaining activists and candidates. We can't afford to lose people
over things that I think they really have a point with. We should
never give anyone an excuse to say "what Party are we in?"
I would support a separate motion to audit JC. Supporting thing one
does not preclude that. This is the one with the very narrow margins
but all votes should be independently audited.
On a related note, I have done a very limited audit of the 2006
Platform votes. Some of the margins were less than 1%. I have found
errors that could have changed the results. They were never audited.
I don't think there was any funny business. But when I finish that
project I bet there are people who will. We need to be above reproach.
All of us discharge our duties in different ways. I am, and will
remain, ferocious for member rights. Never can the discussions be
taken personally. That would be an abrogation of our duties... in my
opinion. I do think what is being done is an abject overreach.
-Caryn Ann
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:34 AM, Richard Longstreth via Lnc-business
<[1]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
Region 1 votes yes and urges others to do the same.
===
I am disappointed to read that there is a vote against this based
primarily on how one member feels they were treated by the rest
of the
LNC. That is not how we should vote. No further explanation
should be
needed. Be good to each other but don't let personal conflicts
interfere with your duty to the membership.
To Mr. Bishop-Henchman's other points, I believe that while this
ballot
only does this for this one ballot, it is the beginning of a
change in
the LNC. I fully support this and ALL measures to independently
audit
ALL ballots. To vote no on this one because it doesn't go far
enough
seems short-sighted. As libertarians, we need to take wins for
transparency where we can get them. This is one of those times.
Second, I have seen the tally sheets, not the ballots, provided
by Ms
Matteson. An independent audit is not moot. Even if all ballots
are
emailed out, I still think it imperative that someone be assigned
to
audit and report to the LNC the results. It is not enough to say
that
information is out there, therefore there is no point in
verifying or
doing more. Imagine if that's how we treated campaigns - we
wouldn't
support candidates because all the information they need is out
there
on the internet, ergo they don't need anything from the LNC/LP.
Ridiculous logic albeit illustrated by fallacy. If this were a
local
election against one of our LP candidates and circumstances were
similar, we would all be pushing like mad to have an audit done.
This
is absolutely no different.
RTL
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 05:49 Joe Bishop-Henchman via Lnc-business
<[1][2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
My vote is no, for three independent reasons.
First, while I would support an audit of all results as a
matter
of
regular practice, that's not what this motion does. It singles
out one
race, this one time. It therefore sends the message that we
think
the
problem with our elections is *inaccurate tabulation* in one
race,
rather than systemic problems, choice of voting system,
scheduling and
labor usage, and avoidance of technological solutions. While
this
motion does not foreclose those discussions, it distracts from
them.
Doing elections the way we do them, plus an audit, solves
nothing.
Second, this motion is moot. Ms. Mattson has already shown her
work,
perhaps because she would have anyway or perhaps because this
motion
was coming. But if Ms. Mattson rigged the election, this audit
ain't
gonna find it. (She also should have rigged it to give herself
more
than a 1-vote margin.) In retrospect, Ms. Mattson and Mr. Starr
probably should have recused themselves from counting the
Secretary's
race, although my sense is that the army of tellers double
checking
everything limited the ability to rig the results. More
information on
our procedures there would be helpful but this motion doesn't
do
that.
The At-Large race is harder, since our voting method makes it
very
labor intensive to count and very few people in the room are
totally
disinterested in the race to be considered independent to be
able
to
count it above reproach. I think it would be fruitful to have
those
discussions and adopt recusal standards for the future, but
again, this
motion doesn't do that.
Third, this motion does nothing to grow our Party, nothing to
allow us
to move forward to focus on goals and plans, nothing to elect
and
re-elect Libertarians. I won't co-sponsor anything that doesn't
do one
of those or more of those things. This doesn't even do any of
those
things indirectly or tangentially: it's backward looking,
pending
because we must refute some rumor on Facebook or from one or
two
regions. We can easily spend all our time doing that, spending
attention and resources trying to refute every conspiracy
theory
we may
hear. Or we can act to grow and plan and elect, and be judged
on
the
quality and the results. I also don't appreciate Ms. Harlos's
repeated
haranguing about why I'm a monster for not immediately
co-sponsoring
this proposal, or Ms. Adams' yesterday description of my
proposal
as
"bullshit," "unacceptable," "gross," "vile," and "sickening"
that
I
have yet to hear any sponsor of this condemn despite repeated
discussions of tone and decorum, or the email exchange of
accusations
and counter-accusations last night that I find childish and
embarrassing. Those tactics lose my vote, and the only way for
that to
be clear for the future is if I vote no now.
JBH
--
Richard Longstreth
Region 1 Representative (AK, AZ, CO, KS, MT, NM, OR, HI, UT, WA,
WY)
Libertarian National Committee
[2][3]richard.longstreth at lp.org
931.538.9300
References
1. mailto:[4]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
2. mailto:[5]richard.longstreth at lp.org
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
- [6]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
3. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
4. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
5. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
6. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
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