[Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-22: PROPERTY RIGHTS RESOLUTION

Wed Aug 15 16:38:29 EDT 2018

The impression came from the discussion on it just a few days ago.  That's where.  We had a whole thread on it, talking about voting and discussion being separated and what the actual procedure was supposed to be.
Sorry for trying to make everyone's comprehension a little easier.  Particularly since I already had 1 vote lost in the electronic mishmash and just didn't want anyone else to have issues.
John Phillips
Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
Cell 217-412-5973
------ Original message------From: Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2018 3:22 PMTo: lnc-business at hq.lp.org;Cc: Caryn Ann Harlos;Subject:Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-22: PROPERTY RIGHTS RESOLUTION
There is no issue with putting the vote at the end.

There is no rule against burying it in the middle.

If you even vote on the wrong email thread I’ll try to catch it.

I’m not sure where the impression was got that there was some rule.

Best practice - put first.

But the is just to make it clear, unambiguous, and easy to find.

There was nothing unclear or difficult to find in EVH’s vote.

-Caryn Ann

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:02 PM Elizabeth Van Horn via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

> Well, one other person (Nick) also put the vote after a statement.  I
> may send another vote, with the vote at the beginning, and my statement
> below.  I'll see if my vote shows up on the vote tally sheet that Caryn
> Ann keeps.
>
> ---
> Elizabeth Van Horn
>
>
> On 2018-08-15 15:52, john.phillips--- via Lnc-business wrote:
> > I agree with everything you said, but just to satisfy the "muh rules"
> >    crowd, you might want to put your vote in its own email. Or at least
> > at
> >    the beginning.
> >    John Phillips
> >    Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
> >    Cell [1]217-412-5973
> >
> >    ------ Original message------
> >    From: Elizabeth Van Horn via Lnc-business
> >    Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2018 2:46 PM
> >    To: [2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org;
> >    Cc: Elizabeth Van Horn;Caryn Ann Harlos;
> >    Subject:Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-22: PROPERTY RIGHTS
> >    RESOLUTION
> > Why isn't capitalism included along with socialism and communism?
> >
> > If: We believe that:  "....unless otherwise voluntarily agreed by all
> > parties, are
> >>    incompatible with the philosophy of the Libertarian Party."
> >
> > Then it doesn't matter what economic system it is.  We don't believe in
> > *forcing* people into submission.  That stands true for ALL economic
> > systems.  Currently, we live in a semi-capitalistic economic system.
> > We
> > aspire to the true free-market, but don't have it.
> >
> > IF:  We don't believe in the "unlawful
> >>    usurpation of property,.."
> >
> > Whose laws?  Laws come from the state.  Yet, we have anarchists in the
> > LP who assert that the state has no right to enact laws without the
> > voluntary agreement of ALL people.  So, are property laws taking into
> > consideration the agreement of *all* people? No, of course not.
> > Because, not all people agree, nor wish to have those laws.  (Mind you,
> > I believe in the right of owning property, but I *don't* believe in
> > forcing my beliefs onto others.)
> >
> > IF:  We believe in the rights of individuals...
> >
> > Then, why would be disavow the right to, "incorrect characterizations
> > of
> > private property,.." ?  People have a right to incorrectly characterize
> > ideas.  Are we now saying that people have no right to thoughts and
> > speech with which we disagree?  It doesn't matter if, "unless otherwise
> > voluntarily agreed by all parties", when it comes to free speech
> > rights.
> >   That's the whole point of free speech! Since when is free speech,
> > "incompatible with the philosophy of the Libertarian Party."?  Who
> > decides what is an "incorrect characterization"?  If freely agreed upon
> > by a group, then it doesn't matter what characterization one makes.
> >
> > What has caused the sponsors of this resolution to single out two
> > economic systems that a handful of noisy LP members support?  If our LP
> > platform already spells out our values, then we point to the platform.
> > But, this resolution isn't about just support of our platform, which
> > was
> > confirmed by delegates at our 2018 national convention in July.  This
> > is
> > about acknowledging that a few noisy people within the LP have irked
> > and
> > scared some other members. They're so scared that the free market of
> > ideas might not have their ideas come out on top.  So, out of fear,
> > they
> > wish to use an LNC Top-Down Resolution, to give a smack-down to the
> > tiny
> > rabble that dare to challenge their ideas.
> >
> > It's too bad that the original suggested resolution, which championed
> > capitalism and I was willing to co-sponsor after tweaking the language,
> > was rejected in favor of this poorly worded one.
> >
> > I vote: NO
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Elizabeth Van Horn
> >
> >
> >
> > On [3]2018-08-15 05:56, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> >> We have an electronic mail ballot.
> >>
> >>    Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by July 22, 2018 at
> >> 11:59:59pm
> >>    Pacific time.
> >>
> >>    Co-Sponsors:  Caryn Ann Harlos, Richard Longstreth, Steven
> >> Nekhaila,
> >>    Justin O’Donnell, Joshua Smith
> >>
> >>    Motion: Move to adopt the following resolution:
> >>
> >>    WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party supports the free market and
> >> therefore
> >>    the right of privatization of property as an extension of the
> >>    individual;
> >>
> >>    WHEREAS, the Statement of Principles of The Libertarian Party
> >>    explicitly supports the right to private property ownership,
> >> including
> >>    the right to do business utilizing that property as capital;
> >>
> >>    WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party strongly supports the rights of
> >>    individuals to own private property including land, structures,
> >> natural
> >>    resources and other private space through homesteading, purchase,
> >> and
> >>    other lawful libertarian means;
> >>
> >>    WHEREAS, ownership of private property, including but not limited
> >> to
> >>    land and housing, does not require continual or personal use to
> >> exist
> >>    as justly owned property unless otherwise abandoned;
> >>
> >>    WHEREAS, these have been part of the principles of the Libertarian
> >>    Party since its inception;
> >>
> >>    THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that socialist and communist property
> >>    ownership schemes, including the collectivization of property,
> >> unlawful
> >>    usurpation of property, and incorrect characterizations of private
> >>    property, unless otherwise voluntarily agreed by all parties, are
> >>    incompatible with the philosophy of the Libertarian Party.
> >>
> >>    =============================================
> >>
> >>    Important Bylaws note:
> >>
> >>    Resolutions require passage by 3/4 vote as follows:
> >>
> >>    Article 7:
> >>
> >>    ***
> >>
> >>    The National Committee may adopt public policy resolutions by a ¾
> >> vote
> >>    with previous notice or by unanimous consent without previous
> >> notice.
> >>
> >>    =============================================
> >>
> >>    You can keep track of the Secretary's manual tally of votes here:
> >>    [1][4]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting.  Votes are noted with a link
> >> to
> >> the
> >>    actual ballot cast for verification. You can find the time that the
> >>    manual tally was last updated at the bottom of the sheet.
> >>
> >>    Please notify me of any discrepancies.
> >>    --
> >>    In Liberty,
> >>    Caryn Ann Harlos
> >>    Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary -
> >>    [2][5]Caryn.Ann.[6] Harlos at LP.org or[7] Secretary at LP.org.
> >>    Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -[8] LPedia at LP.org
> >>    A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
> >>    We defend your rights
> >>    And oppose the use of force
> >>    Taxation is theft
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >>    1. [9]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
> >>    2. mailto[10]:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> >
> > References
> >
> >    1. tel:217-412-5973
> >    2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> >    3. tel:2018-08-15 05
> >    4. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting.
> >    5. http://Caryn.An/
> >    6. mailto: Harlos at LP.org
> >    7. mailto: Secretary at LP.org.
> >    8. mailto: LPedia at LP.org
> >    9. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
> >   10. mailto::Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>
-- 
-- 
*In Liberty,*
*Caryn Ann Harlos*
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary - Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org  or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
*We defend your rights*
*And oppose the use of force*
*Taxation is theft*

   There is no issue with putting the vote at the end.
   There is no rule against burying it in the middle.
   If you even vote on the wrong email thread I’ll try to catch it.
   I’m not sure where the impression was got that there was some rule.
   Best practice - put first.
   But the is just to make it clear, unambiguous, and easy to find.
   There was nothing unclear or difficult to find in EVH’s vote.
   -Caryn Ann
   On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 2:02 PM Elizabeth Van Horn via Lnc-business
   <[1]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

     Well, one other person (Nick) also put the vote after a statement.
     I
     may send another vote, with the vote at the beginning, and my
     statement
     below.  I'll see if my vote shows up on the vote tally sheet that
     Caryn
     Ann keeps.
     ---
     Elizabeth Van Horn
     On 2018-08-15 15:52, john.phillips--- via Lnc-business wrote:
     > I agree with everything you said, but just to satisfy the "muh
     rules"
     >    crowd, you might want to put your vote in its own email. Or at
     least
     > at
     >    the beginning.
     >    John Phillips
     >    Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
     >    Cell [1]217-412-5973
     >
     >    ------ Original message------
     >    From: Elizabeth Van Horn via Lnc-business
     >    Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2018 2:46 PM
     >    To: [2][2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org;
     >    Cc: Elizabeth Van Horn;Caryn Ann Harlos;
     >    Subject:Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-22: PROPERTY
     RIGHTS
     >    RESOLUTION
     > Why isn't capitalism included along with socialism and communism?
     >
     > If: We believe that:  "....unless otherwise voluntarily agreed by
     all
     > parties, are
     >>    incompatible with the philosophy of the Libertarian Party."
     >
     > Then it doesn't matter what economic system it is.  We don't
     believe in
     > *forcing* people into submission.  That stands true for ALL
     economic
     > systems.  Currently, we live in a semi-capitalistic economic
     system.
     > We
     > aspire to the true free-market, but don't have it.
     >
     > IF:  We don't believe in the "unlawful
     >>    usurpation of property,.."
     >
     > Whose laws?  Laws come from the state.  Yet, we have anarchists in
     the
     > LP who assert that the state has no right to enact laws without
     the
     > voluntary agreement of ALL people.  So, are property laws taking
     into
     > consideration the agreement of *all* people? No, of course not.
     > Because, not all people agree, nor wish to have those laws.  (Mind
     you,
     > I believe in the right of owning property, but I *don't* believe
     in
     > forcing my beliefs onto others.)
     >
     > IF:  We believe in the rights of individuals...
     >
     > Then, why would be disavow the right to, "incorrect
     characterizations
     > of
     > private property,.." ?  People have a right to incorrectly
     characterize
     > ideas.  Are we now saying that people have no right to thoughts
     and
     > speech with which we disagree?  It doesn't matter if, "unless
     otherwise
     > voluntarily agreed by all parties", when it comes to free speech
     > rights.
     >   That's the whole point of free speech! Since when is free
     speech,
     > "incompatible with the philosophy of the Libertarian Party."?  Who
     > decides what is an "incorrect characterization"?  If freely agreed
     upon
     > by a group, then it doesn't matter what characterization one
     makes.
     >
     > What has caused the sponsors of this resolution to single out two
     > economic systems that a handful of noisy LP members support?  If
     our LP
     > platform already spells out our values, then we point to the
     platform.
     > But, this resolution isn't about just support of our platform,
     which
     > was
     > confirmed by delegates at our 2018 national convention in July.
     This
     > is
     > about acknowledging that a few noisy people within the LP have
     irked
     > and
     > scared some other members. They're so scared that the free market
     of
     > ideas might not have their ideas come out on top.  So, out of
     fear,
     > they
     > wish to use an LNC Top-Down Resolution, to give a smack-down to
     the
     > tiny
     > rabble that dare to challenge their ideas.
     >
     > It's too bad that the original suggested resolution, which
     championed
     > capitalism and I was willing to co-sponsor after tweaking the
     language,
     > was rejected in favor of this poorly worded one.
     >
     > I vote: NO
     >
     >
     > ---
     > Elizabeth Van Horn
     >
     >
     >
     > On [3]2018-08-15 05:56, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
     >> We have an electronic mail ballot.
     >>
     >>    Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by July 22, 2018 at
     >> 11:59:59pm
     >>    Pacific time.
     >>
     >>    Co-Sponsors:  Caryn Ann Harlos, Richard Longstreth, Steven
     >> Nekhaila,
     >>    Justin O’Donnell, Joshua Smith
     >>
     >>    Motion: Move to adopt the following resolution:
     >>
     >>    WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party supports the free market and
     >> therefore
     >>    the right of privatization of property as an extension of the
     >>    individual;
     >>
     >>    WHEREAS, the Statement of Principles of The Libertarian Party
     >>    explicitly supports the right to private property ownership,
     >> including
     >>    the right to do business utilizing that property as capital;
     >>
     >>    WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party strongly supports the rights of
     >>    individuals to own private property including land,
     structures,
     >> natural
     >>    resources and other private space through homesteading,
     purchase,
     >> and
     >>    other lawful libertarian means;
     >>
     >>    WHEREAS, ownership of private property, including but not
     limited
     >> to
     >>    land and housing, does not require continual or personal use
     to
     >> exist
     >>    as justly owned property unless otherwise abandoned;
     >>
     >>    WHEREAS, these have been part of the principles of the
     Libertarian
     >>    Party since its inception;
     >>
     >>    THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that socialist and communist
     property
     >>    ownership schemes, including the collectivization of property,
     >> unlawful
     >>    usurpation of property, and incorrect characterizations of
     private
     >>    property, unless otherwise voluntarily agreed by all parties,
     are
     >>    incompatible with the philosophy of the Libertarian Party.
     >>
     >>    =============================================
     >>
     >>    Important Bylaws note:
     >>
     >>    Resolutions require passage by 3/4 vote as follows:
     >>
     >>    Article 7:
     >>
     >>    ***
     >>
     >>    The National Committee may adopt public policy resolutions by
     a ¾
     >> vote
     >>    with previous notice or by unanimous consent without previous
     >> notice.
     >>
     >>    =============================================
     >>
     >>    You can keep track of the Secretary's manual tally of votes
     here:
     >>    [1][4][3]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting.  Votes are noted with
     a link
     >> to
     >> the
     >>    actual ballot cast for verification. You can find the time
     that the
     >>    manual tally was last updated at the bottom of the sheet.
     >>
     >>    Please notify me of any discrepancies.
     >>    --
     >>    In Liberty,
     >>    Caryn Ann Harlos
     >>    Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
     -
     >>    [2][5]Caryn.Ann.[6] Harlos at LP.org or[7] Secretary at LP.org.
     >>    Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -[8] LPedia at LP.org
     >>    A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
     >>    We defend your rights
     >>    And oppose the use of force
     >>    Taxation is theft
     >>
     >> References
     >>
     >>    1. [9][4]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
     >>    2. mailto[10]:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
     >
     > References
     >
     >    1. tel:217-412-5973
     >    2. mailto:[5]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
     >    3. tel:2018-08-15 05
     >    4. [6]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting.
     >    5. [7]http://Caryn.An/
     >    6. mailto: Harlos at LP.org
     >    7. mailto: Secretary at LP.org.
     >    8. mailto: LPedia at LP.org
     >    9. [8]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
     >   10. mailto::Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org

   --

   --
   In Liberty,
   Caryn Ann Harlos
   Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
   - [9]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
   Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
   A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
   We defend your rights
   And oppose the use of force
   Taxation is theft

References

   1. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
   2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
   3. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
   4. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
   5. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
   6. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
   7. http://Caryn.An/
   8. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
   9. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
-------------- next part --------------
   The impression came from the discussion on it just a few days ago.
   That's where.  We had a whole thread on it, talking about voting and
   discussion being separated and what the actual procedure was supposed
   to be.
   Sorry for trying to make everyone's comprehension a little easier.
   Particularly since I already had 1 vote lost in the electronic mishmash
   and just didn't want anyone else to have issues.
   John Phillips
   Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
   Cell [1]217-412-5973

   ------ Original message------
   From: Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
   Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2018 3:22 PM
   To: [2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org;
   Cc: Caryn Ann Harlos;
   Subject:Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-22: PROPERTY RIGHTS
   RESOLUTION
There is no issue with putting the vote at the end.