[Lnc-business] DRAFT MINUTES FOR SEPTEMBER 29-30, 2018 LNC MEETING - V1
Caryn Ann Harlos
caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
Tue Nov 27 17:37:24 EST 2018
I reviewed the recording on the assistant treasurer and corrected it as the
statement more accurately was Mr. redpath declines.
Perhaps wait until you see the next draft to be sure you are only picking
fights on things actually in controversy.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:34 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
wrote:
> PS: If this body wishes the hand counts noted in the future, I’ll gladly
> do so. I object this time as I did not record them and am being asked to
> modify based on your records - you are not the secretary elected by the
> delegates: I am. And that’s really what this is all about.
>
> I will ask the LNC if they prefer I include that for the future. I have
> no problem doing so.
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:29 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Ahh I see you just intend to be insulting.
>>
>> We can have this debate then at the meeting where rules of decorum hold
>> sway as I have no interest in that.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:24 PM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> <CAH>
>>> Re: counts in hand-raise votes
>>> I do not believe this is proper or necessary as the body did not order
>>> a counted vote. I consulted briefly on the RONR forum regarding this
>>> question and so far the conversation affirms my position. I will
>>> continue to monitor my question there to see if anything further is
>>> added. Thus, I will not be making those changes. If the count is
>>> important any member can and should request a roll call vote or move
>>> that the count be placed in the record. </CAH>
>>> Your past position seemed to be that we should have at least what RONR
>>> prescribes, plus a whole lot more. Are you now taking the position
>>> that it's improper to include content beyond what RONR prescribes?
>>> That wasn't your position when I noted that RONR p. 468 says that the
>>> minutes, "should contain mainly a record of what was done at the
>>> meeting, not what was said by the members."
>>> When I brought that up, I was portrayed as being anti-transparency, my
>>> minutes were called "sterile", and there was this quote from you:
>>> "Over the course of the existence of the LP rather than simply the
>>> past
>>> five years, the custom has been to include more detail than the
>>> skeletor requirements of RONR. In fact WAY more detail than I have
>>> included which creates a rather thorough historical record which -with
>>> all due respect to General Robert - is just as important as having
>>> voted down a particular committee creation."
>>> Given that prior posturing, I don't understand why now you object to
>>> documenting the factual vote totals which were announced at the
>>> meeting.
>>> Are you now agreeing to restrict the minutes to the "skeletor
>>> requirements of RONR"? Will you be asking the same internet forum
>>> about including extensive debate commentary in the minutes in light of
>>> the p. 468 passage I quoted above?
>>> Regardless, I don't agree that it is improper even under the "skeletor
>>> requirements". On RONR p. 470 it says, "When a count has been ordered
>>> or the vote is by ballot, the number of votes on each side should be
>>> entered; and when the voting is by roll call, the names of those
>>> voting
>>> on each side and those answering "Present" should be entered."
>>> RONR permits either the chair or the assembly to order a count. If a
>>> chair actually did count the votes, and announced the counts, it seems
>>> he decided to order himself to do a count.
>>> Given how much you posture about "transparency" (though I realize it's
>>> a selective devotion) and you often critique others for allegedly not
>>> being transparent enough, I don't understand a refusal to include
>>> simple vote counts that took place.
>>> <CAH>
>>> Re: Adding total ballots cast
>>> This has not been done in past minutes either as it is obvious by
>>> counting the number of names of LNC members voting (for example see
>>> vote on the Candidate Support Committee last year
>>> [1]
>>> https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minu
>>> tes-approved.pdf re: last page and page 17) </CAH>
>>> In the set of minutes to which you linked, you'll see on p. 18 the
>>> reported results for the Candidate Support Committee election, and the
>>> first part of the first sentence says, "With 17 signed ballots
>>> cast..." Similarly, in the same set of minutes, for both rounds of
>>> voting for the Credentials Committee members, the first data point
>>> given with the results is the number of ballots cast.
>>> I believe I always included this in past minutes. Any instance where
>>> it was not included it would be an accidental exception, rather than
>>> the rule for me.
>>> -Alicia
>>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:07 AM Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> <[2]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Part 2 (and final) to Alicia's comments:
>>> Re: Adding total ballots cast
>>> This has not been done in past minutes either as it is obvious by
>>> counting the number of names of LNC members voting (for example see
>>> vote on the Candidate Support Committee last year
>>> [3]
>>> https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minu
>>> tes-approved.pdf re: last page and page 17)
>>> However, I don't believe in making the reader have to work to
>>> ascertain
>>> that as they would have, so I will add that.
>>> Re: Neale Rule
>>> I will add that as an appendix and re-letter the appendices
>>> accordingly.
>>> Re: "whether" in APRC motion
>>> I will review my recording on that.
>>> Re: germanity
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 7:41 AM Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> <[4]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am going through this in batches and will address thusly and will
>>> submit an amended draft. I deeply appreciate the advance review.
>>> Re: counts in hand-raise votes
>>> I do not believe this is proper or necessary as the body did not order
>>> a counted vote. I consulted briefly on the RONR forum regarding this
>>> question and so far the conversation affirms my position. I will
>>> continue to monitor my question there to see if anything further is
>>> added. Thus, I will not be making those changes. If the count is
>>> important any member can and should request a roll call vote or move
>>> that the count be placed in the record.
>>> Re: Appendix E v F
>>> This was corrected. Please note in the forthcoming draft that there is
>>> an additional appendix added.
>>> Re: notations of amendments to agenda
>>> I do not believe my minutes insinuate that Nick has the power to
>>> unilaterally amend the agenda. The item in question was properly
>>> noticed and was inadvertantly not included and Nick was merely
>>> recognizing that point. However, this is a quibble I do not wish to
>>> expend energy on and made the appropriate amendments to satisfy this
>>> objection.
>>> Re: notation of as amended
>>> It wasn't formally amended but rather I simply agreed, but not a point
>>> I wish to quibble on so I added that language to satisfy this
>>> objection.
>>> Re: it's v its
>>> That was already corrected in the updated draft.
>>> To be continued...
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 1:35 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business
>>> <[5]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Skimming the subject lines of still-unread emails in my inbox, I
>>> see
>>> that an updated draft of the September minutes has been sent
>>> today. My
>>> comments below are from looking at the first draft. I have not
>>> reviewed today’s update to see whether these have already been
>>> addressed, so there may be some items listed here that are now
>>> moot.
>>> No appendices were included with this draft of the September
>>> minutes.
>>> I’m not inclined to approve things sight unseen. Many of the
>>> appendices were sent in advance, but three of the appendices have
>>> not
>>> yet been seen by the LNC:
>>> Appendix A – abstracts of public comments
>>> Appendix B – updated list of potential conflicts of
>>> interest
>>> Appendix M – Candidate Support Committee report
>>> There were a number of counted hand votes which were recorded to
>>> only
>>> say whether the motion passed or failed but do not include the
>>> counted
>>> vote totals:
>>> p. 13, the Mattson amendment to 7/3/18 minutes was an 8-8 vote
>>> p. 29, the Merced amendment to add “if any” to the Mattson
>>> amendment
>>> regarding data to the Membership Support Committee was a 12-1
>>> vote
>>> p. 29, the Mattson amendment, as amended by the Merced motion,
>>> was an
>>> 11-2 vote
>>> p. 29, the Redpath motion to change the next day’s starting time
>>> was a
>>> 7-6 vote
>>> p. 35, motion 180930-6 was a 13-2 vote
>>> p. 39, Lark motion to insert “non-voting” was an 11-2 vote
>>> p. 39, Longstreth motion to insert the parenthetical phrase was a
>>> 6-7
>>> vote
>>> p. 42, Harlos motion to amend to add the phrase “and the
>>> Statement of
>>> Principles” was a 13-0 vote
>>> p. 42, Bilyeu motion to strike the original language was a 6-8
>>> vote
>>> p. 45, motion 180930-13 was a 13-2 vote
>>> p. 46, Lark motion to postpone indefinitely was an 11-4 vote
>>> p. 46, Merced amendment to strike the phrase “the entire LNC” was
>>> a 9-2
>>> vote
>>> p. 6 – Secretary’s Report is identified as being Appendix E, but
>>> later
>>> in other locations it is referenced to be Appendix F
>>> When amending the proposed agenda, we tend to operate very
>>> loosely, but
>>> the draft minutes are phrased in a way that looks like the Chair
>>> unilaterally has the power to dictate the agenda, rather than as
>>> though
>>> we were making motions approved without objection by the LNC:
>>> p. 8 “Mr. Sarwark noted a prior request…and instructed the LNC to
>>> note
>>> that change”, rather than noting the change was made without
>>> objection
>>> p. 8 add “without objection” before “The time allotted for the
>>> Special
>>> Counsel’s Report…”
>>> p. 8 “Mr. Sarwark added five (5) minutes to Mr. Hagan’s report…”,
>>> rather than “Without objection, five (5) minutes were added…”
>>> p. 8 change “Ms. Harlos requested ten (10) minutes…” to “Ms.
>>> Harlos
>>> moved to add ten (10) minutes…” and “There was no objection.”
>>> p. 13 motion 180929-4 has no “as amended” notation, though the
>>> prior
>>> sentence indicates that an amendment was agreed to.
>>> p. 14 in the penultimate bullet point, “it’s” should instead be
>>> “its”.
>>> None of the election results tell the reader how many ballots
>>> were cast
>>> on that election. That’s critical information to calculating how
>>> many
>>> votes constituted the majority necessary for election.
>>> p. 16 indicates the rules for population of the Audit Committee
>>> come
>>> from the LNC Policy Manual, but as the Policy Manual notes in
>>> footnote
>>> 27, that policy is inherited from LP Bylaws Article 9.2.
>>> p. 17 indicates that “Mr. Goldstein nominated Mr. Redpath, but he
>>> is
>>> ineligible as he is the Assistant Treasurer.” I know of a bylaw
>>> which
>>> makes Mr. Hagan ineligible, since he is an officer, but I know of
>>> no
>>> rule which makes Mr. Redpath ineligible as the Assistant
>>> Treasurer.
>>> I’m making a mental note for myself that the bylaws should
>>> probably be
>>> amended to add such a rule in the future.
>>> p. 17 indicates that I “formally objected” to a nomination, but I
>>> don’t
>>> know what it means to “formally object”. It sounds rather
>>> personal. I
>>> believe I raised a point of order regarding distinctions between
>>> members and alternates.
>>> p. 17 spells my name incorrectly when I appealed the ruling of
>>> the
>>> chair.
>>> p. 19 under Maine Ballot Access issues, it parenthetically
>>> indicates
>>> the law is effectively requiring a “doubling” of the registration
>>> roster by the November elections. I don’t think that is
>>> practically
>>> correct. Doubling would be sufficient only if we had 100%
>>> Libertarian
>>> turnout, which ain’t gonna happen. It really requires much more
>>> than
>>> doubling. The previous sentence details the actual requirement,
>>> so I’d
>>> recommend just striking the parenthetical.
>>> p. 21 motion 180929-9 about opening nominations for the COC
>>> should
>>> append “for the next term” to the end of the motion text. It may
>>> sound
>>> like Sam was making a trivial distinction, but it’s not since the
>>> then-current term of the COC members had not yet expired, and
>>> that
>>> language clarified that it was not to name the members for the
>>> tiny
>>> remainder of the existing term, but was to take effect upon
>>> expiration
>>> of their existing terms.
>>> p. 24 says the LNC was unclear on the actual costs of Mr.
>>> Koerner’s
>>> proposal, however he did give us some price points during the Q&A
>>> from
>>> his presentation. My notes say he priced it at $10k to license
>>> trademarks for 6 months, plus 15% of merchandise sales, plus
>>> $120/hr
>>> consulting for his time.
>>> p. 27 Youth Engagement Committee – We did pass a motion to open
>>> nominations for an election to appoint one and only one LNC
>>> member.
>>> That does not preclude appointing another one later. It only
>>> limits
>>> that particular election to only choose one. There were two
>>> people who
>>> commented during debate that they wanted it limited to one total,
>>> but
>>> the debate comments of two people are not binding decisions made
>>> by the
>>> whole LNC. Several phrases written into the text of the minutes
>>> take
>>> that comment stated by a couple of people during debate and
>>> project it
>>> onto the whole LNC as a binding prohibition, though I think it is
>>> a
>>> personal interpretation. Many LNC members later chose to also
>>> vote for
>>> Dustin Nanna for this committee, so that likely indicates some
>>> disagreement with the interpretation embedded into the minutes
>>> like
>>> this:
>>> p. 27, first paragraph, “LNC member involvement should be
>>> limited”, was
>>> merely a debate comment made by two people, though this is worded
>>> as
>>> though it was confirmed that the LNC as a whole agreed with it.
>>> p. 27, Ms. Lee was elected as the “sole” LNC member
>>> p. 27, Mr. Sarwark confirmed that voting for the “non-LNC”
>>> members
>>> would take place… though I don’t believe that was stated that way
>>> during the meeting
>>> p. 36, inclusion of the phrase “comprising non-LNC members”
>>> p. 36, identifying Ms. Lee as “the sole” LNC member
>>> the footnote on p. 45
>>> All of these can easily be rephrased to not take a position on an
>>> interpretation question as though it is a statement of
>>> established
>>> fact.
>>> p. 31, my motion to apply an end date to email ballot 2018-19 was
>>> merely to insert the phrase, “until the adjournment of the 2020
>>> regular
>>> convention”, but the draft minutes also format the next phrase
>>> “the
>>> Libertarian National Committee” as text to be inserted, though
>>> that
>>> text was part of the already-adopted language.
>>> p. 32, the text of the “Neale Rule” being rescinded is not
>>> included in
>>> the minutes. It’s long enough that it probably makes sense to
>>> put it
>>> in an appendix, however the wording of the actual text being
>>> rescinded
>>> should be included in the record. A reader would not otherwise
>>> have
>>> any idea where to find the text of an unpublished rule.
>>> p. 35, upon comment by Mr. Hagan, you indicated that the word
>>> “whether”
>>> was intended to also be struck in first sentence of the motion,
>>> but it
>>> is not struck in this draft or listed as an amendment adopted
>>> without
>>> objection.
>>> p. 35, did the Chair rule that my amendment had German
>>> characteristics? Perhaps “germaneness” is the word for which you
>>> were
>>> searching.
>>> p. 40, motion 180930-9 describes the general nature of the motion
>>> but
>>> does not show the actual text of the motion.
>>> p. 40, also on motion 180930-9 there is a typo with a colon where
>>> a
>>> period was intended, plank “2:12” rather than “2.12”.
>>> p. 47, “Discussion of LNC Goals for the 2018-2020 Term” was
>>> actually
>>> done post-adjournment, though this looks like it happened during
>>> the
>>> meeting.
>>> p. 47, indicates adjournment was at 1:01 p.m., but my notes say
>>> it was
>>> at 2:15 p.m., followed by the informal goals discussion which
>>> ended at
>>> 2:47 p.m. I quickly checked a couple of external indicators
>>> (including
>>> my text message history) to confirm the later adjournment time.
>>> Large sections of the body of the minutes contain material which
>>> is
>>> merely repetition of the staff/committee reports which will
>>> become
>>> appendices. In some cases, it appears that the text in the
>>> minutes is
>>> copy/pasted directly from the reports, so I don’t understand the
>>> need
>>> to have so many pages duplicated in part rather than just
>>> inviting them
>>> to go to the appendix to see the full original. Here are a few
>>> examples:
>>> p. 13+ bullet list of items from Staff Report
>>> p. 15 another bullet list of items from staff report
>>> p. 20 bullet list from COC report
>>> p. 21 section about the post-convention survey
>>> -Alicia
>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 2:31 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
>>> <[1][6]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> Hello everyone attached please find the first draft of the
>>> minutes
>>> for
>>> the September 29-30, 2018 LNC meeting. First I want to thank
>>> everyone
>>> for their forbearance for not submitting during the
>>> auto-approval
>>> window due to my unexpected medical leave of absence.
>>> So that we can hash out any changes ahead of and simply vote on
>>> adoption at our December meeting, please advise asap of any
>>> suggested
>>> revisions or corrections.
>>> --
>>> In Liberty,
>>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
>>> -
>>> Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>>> [2][7]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>>
>>> ====================================================================
>>> =====
>>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
>>> Re-Legalize
>>> All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal
>>> All Gun
>>> Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money *
>>> Abolish The
>>> Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and
>>> Repeal
>>> the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure *
>>> Free-market
>>> Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government
>>> Schools To
>>> The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
>>> VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [3][8]http://www.LP.org
>>>
>>> ====================================================================
>>> =====
>>> References
>>> 1. mailto:[9]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 2. [10]http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>> 3. [11]http://www.LP.org/
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> In Liberty,
>>> [uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
>>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>>> Secretary - [12]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
>>> at [13]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>>
>>> =======================================================================
>>> ==
>>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>>> All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
>>> Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The
>>> Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal
>>> the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market
>>> Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To
>>> The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
>>> VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [14]http://www.LP.org
>>>
>>> =======================================================================
>>> ==
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> In Liberty,
>>> [uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
>>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>>> Secretary - [15]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
>>> at [16]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>>
>>> =======================================================================
>>> ==
>>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>>> All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
>>> Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The
>>> Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal
>>> the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market
>>> Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To
>>> The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
>>> VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [17]http://www.LP.org
>>>
>>> =======================================================================
>>> ==
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1.
>>> https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minutes-approved.pdf
>>> 2. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>>> 3.
>>> https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minutes-approved.pdf
>>> 4. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>>> 5. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 6. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 7. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>> 8. http://www.LP.org/
>>> 9. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 10. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>> 11. http://www.LP.org/
>>> 12. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 13. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>> 14. http://www.lp.org/
>>> 15. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 16. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>> 17. http://www.lp.org/
>>>
>> --
>>
>> * In Liberty,*
>>
>> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
>> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>>
>> =========================================================================
>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>> All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
>> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
>> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
>> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
>> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
>> Eliminate Regulation *
>>
>> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org
>> <http://www.lp.org/>*
>> =========================================================================
>>
> --
>
> * In Liberty,*
>
> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>
> =========================================================================
> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> Eliminate Regulation *
>
> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
> =========================================================================
>
--
* In Liberty,*
*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *
*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================
-------------- next part --------------
I reviewed the recording on the assistant treasurer and corrected it as
the statement more accurately was Mr. redpath declines.
Perhaps wait until you see the next draft to be sure you are only
picking fights on things actually in controversy.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:34 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[1]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
PS: If this body wishes the hand counts noted in the future, I’ll
gladly do so. I object this time as I did not record them and am being
asked to modify based on your records - you are not the secretary
elected by the delegates: I am. And that’s really what this is all
about.
I will ask the LNC if they prefer I include that for the future. I
have no problem doing so.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:29 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[2]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
Ahh I see you just intend to be insulting.
We can have this debate then at the meeting where rules of decorum hold
sway as I have no interest in that.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:24 PM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business
<[3]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
<CAH>
Re: counts in hand-raise votes
I do not believe this is proper or necessary as the body did not
order
a counted vote. I consulted briefly on the RONR forum regarding
this
question and so far the conversation affirms my position. I will
continue to monitor my question there to see if anything further
is
added. Thus, I will not be making those changes. If the count
is
important any member can and should request a roll call vote or
move
that the count be placed in the record. </CAH>
Your past position seemed to be that we should have at least what
RONR
prescribes, plus a whole lot more. Are you now taking the
position
that it's improper to include content beyond what RONR
prescribes?
That wasn't your position when I noted that RONR p. 468 says that
the
minutes, "should contain mainly a record of what was done at the
meeting, not what was said by the members."
When I brought that up, I was portrayed as being
anti-transparency, my
minutes were called "sterile", and there was this quote from you:
"Over the course of the existence of the LP rather than simply
the past
five years, the custom has been to include more detail than the
skeletor requirements of RONR. In fact WAY more detail than I
have
included which creates a rather thorough historical record which
-with
all due respect to General Robert - is just as important as
having
voted down a particular committee creation."
Given that prior posturing, I don't understand why now you object
to
documenting the factual vote totals which were announced at the
meeting.
Are you now agreeing to restrict the minutes to the "skeletor
requirements of RONR"? Will you be asking the same internet
forum
about including extensive debate commentary in the minutes in
light of
the p. 468 passage I quoted above?
Regardless, I don't agree that it is improper even under the
"skeletor
requirements". On RONR p. 470 it says, "When a count has been
ordered
or the vote is by ballot, the number of votes on each side should
be
entered; and when the voting is by roll call, the names of those
voting
on each side and those answering "Present" should be entered."
RONR permits either the chair or the assembly to order a count.
If a
chair actually did count the votes, and announced the counts, it
seems
he decided to order himself to do a count.
Given how much you posture about "transparency" (though I realize
it's
a selective devotion) and you often critique others for allegedly
not
being transparent enough, I don't understand a refusal to include
simple vote counts that took place.
<CAH>
Re: Adding total ballots cast
This has not been done in past minutes either as it is obvious by
counting the number of names of LNC members voting (for example
see
vote on the Candidate Support Committee last year
[1][4]https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LN
C-Minu
tes-approved.pdf re: last page and page 17) </CAH>
In the set of minutes to which you linked, you'll see on p. 18
the
reported results for the Candidate Support Committee election,
and the
first part of the first sentence says, "With 17 signed ballots
cast..." Similarly, in the same set of minutes, for both rounds
of
voting for the Credentials Committee members, the first data
point
given with the results is the number of ballots cast.
I believe I always included this in past minutes. Any instance
where
it was not included it would be an accidental exception, rather
than
the rule for me.
-Alicia
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 5:07 AM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[2][5]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
Part 2 (and final) to Alicia's comments:
Re: Adding total ballots cast
This has not been done in past minutes either as it is obvious by
counting the number of names of LNC members voting (for example
see
vote on the Candidate Support Committee last year
[3][6]https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LN
C-Minu
tes-approved.pdf re: last page and page 17)
However, I don't believe in making the reader have to work to
ascertain
that as they would have, so I will add that.
Re: Neale Rule
I will add that as an appendix and re-letter the appendices
accordingly.
Re: "whether" in APRC motion
I will review my recording on that.
Re: germanity
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 7:41 AM Caryn Ann Harlos
<[4][7]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
I am going through this in batches and will address thusly and
will
submit an amended draft. I deeply appreciate the advance review.
Re: counts in hand-raise votes
I do not believe this is proper or necessary as the body did not
order
a counted vote. I consulted briefly on the RONR forum regarding
this
question and so far the conversation affirms my position. I will
continue to monitor my question there to see if anything further
is
added. Thus, I will not be making those changes. If the count
is
important any member can and should request a roll call vote or
move
that the count be placed in the record.
Re: Appendix E v F
This was corrected. Please note in the forthcoming draft that
there is
an additional appendix added.
Re: notations of amendments to agenda
I do not believe my minutes insinuate that Nick has the power to
unilaterally amend the agenda. The item in question was properly
noticed and was inadvertantly not included and Nick was merely
recognizing that point. However, this is a quibble I do not wish
to
expend energy on and made the appropriate amendments to satisfy
this
objection.
Re: notation of as amended
It wasn't formally amended but rather I simply agreed, but not a
point
I wish to quibble on so I added that language to satisfy this
objection.
Re: it's v its
That was already corrected in the updated draft.
To be continued...
On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 1:35 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business
<[5][8]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
Skimming the subject lines of still-unread emails in my
inbox, I
see
that an updated draft of the September minutes has been sent
today. My
comments below are from looking at the first draft. I have
not
reviewed today’s update to see whether these have already
been
addressed, so there may be some items listed here that are
now
moot.
No appendices were included with this draft of the September
minutes.
I’m not inclined to approve things sight unseen. Many of
the
appendices were sent in advance, but three of the appendices
have
not
yet been seen by the LNC:
Appendix A – abstracts of public comments
Appendix B – updated list of potential conflicts
of
interest
Appendix M – Candidate Support Committee report
There were a number of counted hand votes which were
recorded to
only
say whether the motion passed or failed but do not include
the
counted
vote totals:
p. 13, the Mattson amendment to 7/3/18 minutes was an 8-8
vote
p. 29, the Merced amendment to add “if any” to the Mattson
amendment
regarding data to the Membership Support Committee was a
12-1
vote
p. 29, the Mattson amendment, as amended by the Merced
motion,
was an
11-2 vote
p. 29, the Redpath motion to change the next day’s starting
time
was a
7-6 vote
p. 35, motion 180930-6 was a 13-2 vote
p. 39, Lark motion to insert “non-voting” was an 11-2 vote
p. 39, Longstreth motion to insert the parenthetical phrase
was a
6-7
vote
p. 42, Harlos motion to amend to add the phrase “and the
Statement of
Principles” was a 13-0 vote
p. 42, Bilyeu motion to strike the original language was a
6-8
vote
p. 45, motion 180930-13 was a 13-2 vote
p. 46, Lark motion to postpone indefinitely was an 11-4 vote
p. 46, Merced amendment to strike the phrase “the entire
LNC” was
a 9-2
vote
p. 6 – Secretary’s Report is identified as being Appendix E,
but
later
in other locations it is referenced to be Appendix F
When amending the proposed agenda, we tend to operate very
loosely, but
the draft minutes are phrased in a way that looks like the
Chair
unilaterally has the power to dictate the agenda, rather
than as
though
we were making motions approved without objection by the
LNC:
p. 8 “Mr. Sarwark noted a prior request…and instructed the
LNC to
note
that change”, rather than noting the change was made without
objection
p. 8 add “without objection” before “The time allotted for
the
Special
Counsel’s Report…”
p. 8 “Mr. Sarwark added five (5) minutes to Mr. Hagan’s
report…”,
rather than “Without objection, five (5) minutes were
added…”
p. 8 change “Ms. Harlos requested ten (10) minutes…” to “Ms.
Harlos
moved to add ten (10) minutes…” and “There was no
objection.”
p. 13 motion 180929-4 has no “as amended” notation, though
the
prior
sentence indicates that an amendment was agreed to.
p. 14 in the penultimate bullet point, “it’s” should instead
be
“its”.
None of the election results tell the reader how many
ballots
were cast
on that election. That’s critical information to
calculating how
many
votes constituted the majority necessary for election.
p. 16 indicates the rules for population of the Audit
Committee
come
from the LNC Policy Manual, but as the Policy Manual notes
in
footnote
27, that policy is inherited from LP Bylaws Article 9.2.
p. 17 indicates that “Mr. Goldstein nominated Mr. Redpath,
but he
is
ineligible as he is the Assistant Treasurer.” I know of a
bylaw
which
makes Mr. Hagan ineligible, since he is an officer, but I
know of
no
rule which makes Mr. Redpath ineligible as the Assistant
Treasurer.
I’m making a mental note for myself that the bylaws should
probably be
amended to add such a rule in the future.
p. 17 indicates that I “formally objected” to a nomination,
but I
don’t
know what it means to “formally object”. It sounds rather
personal. I
believe I raised a point of order regarding distinctions
between
members and alternates.
p. 17 spells my name incorrectly when I appealed the ruling
of
the
chair.
p. 19 under Maine Ballot Access issues, it parenthetically
indicates
the law is effectively requiring a “doubling” of the
registration
roster by the November elections. I don’t think that is
practically
correct. Doubling would be sufficient only if we had 100%
Libertarian
turnout, which ain’t gonna happen. It really requires much
more
than
doubling. The previous sentence details the actual
requirement,
so I’d
recommend just striking the parenthetical.
p. 21 motion 180929-9 about opening nominations for the COC
should
append “for the next term” to the end of the motion text.
It may
sound
like Sam was making a trivial distinction, but it’s not
since the
then-current term of the COC members had not yet expired,
and
that
language clarified that it was not to name the members for
the
tiny
remainder of the existing term, but was to take effect upon
expiration
of their existing terms.
p. 24 says the LNC was unclear on the actual costs of Mr.
Koerner’s
proposal, however he did give us some price points during
the Q&A
from
his presentation. My notes say he priced it at $10k to
license
trademarks for 6 months, plus 15% of merchandise sales, plus
$120/hr
consulting for his time.
p. 27 Youth Engagement Committee – We did pass a motion to
open
nominations for an election to appoint one and only one LNC
member.
That does not preclude appointing another one later. It
only
limits
that particular election to only choose one. There were two
people who
commented during debate that they wanted it limited to one
total,
but
the debate comments of two people are not binding decisions
made
by the
whole LNC. Several phrases written into the text of the
minutes
take
that comment stated by a couple of people during debate and
project it
onto the whole LNC as a binding prohibition, though I think
it is
a
personal interpretation. Many LNC members later chose to
also
vote for
Dustin Nanna for this committee, so that likely indicates
some
disagreement with the interpretation embedded into the
minutes
like
this:
p. 27, first paragraph, “LNC member involvement should be
limited”, was
merely a debate comment made by two people, though this is
worded
as
though it was confirmed that the LNC as a whole agreed with
it.
p. 27, Ms. Lee was elected as the “sole” LNC member
p. 27, Mr. Sarwark confirmed that voting for the “non-LNC”
members
would take place… though I don’t believe that was stated
that way
during the meeting
p. 36, inclusion of the phrase “comprising non-LNC members”
p. 36, identifying Ms. Lee as “the sole” LNC member
the footnote on p. 45
All of these can easily be rephrased to not take a position
on an
interpretation question as though it is a statement of
established
fact.
p. 31, my motion to apply an end date to email ballot
2018-19 was
merely to insert the phrase, “until the adjournment of the
2020
regular
convention”, but the draft minutes also format the next
phrase
“the
Libertarian National Committee” as text to be inserted,
though
that
text was part of the already-adopted language.
p. 32, the text of the “Neale Rule” being rescinded is not
included in
the minutes. It’s long enough that it probably makes sense
to
put it
in an appendix, however the wording of the actual text being
rescinded
should be included in the record. A reader would not
otherwise
have
any idea where to find the text of an unpublished rule.
p. 35, upon comment by Mr. Hagan, you indicated that the
word
“whether”
was intended to also be struck in first sentence of the
motion,
but it
is not struck in this draft or listed as an amendment
adopted
without
objection.
p. 35, did the Chair rule that my amendment had German
characteristics? Perhaps “germaneness” is the word for
which you
were
searching.
p. 40, motion 180930-9 describes the general nature of the
motion
but
does not show the actual text of the motion.
p. 40, also on motion 180930-9 there is a typo with a colon
where
a
period was intended, plank “2:12” rather than “2.12”.
p. 47, “Discussion of LNC Goals for the 2018-2020 Term” was
actually
done post-adjournment, though this looks like it happened
during
the
meeting.
p. 47, indicates adjournment was at 1:01 p.m., but my notes
say
it was
at 2:15 p.m., followed by the informal goals discussion
which
ended at
2:47 p.m. I quickly checked a couple of external indicators
(including
my text message history) to confirm the later adjournment
time.
Large sections of the body of the minutes contain material
which
is
merely repetition of the staff/committee reports which will
become
appendices. In some cases, it appears that the text in the
minutes is
copy/pasted directly from the reports, so I don’t understand
the
need
to have so many pages duplicated in part rather than just
inviting them
to go to the appendix to see the full original. Here are a
few
examples:
p. 13+ bullet list of items from Staff Report
p. 15 another bullet list of items from staff report
p. 20 bullet list from COC report
p. 21 section about the post-convention survey
-Alicia
On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 2:31 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via
Lnc-business
<[1][6][9]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
Hello everyone attached please find the first draft of the
minutes
for
the September 29-30, 2018 LNC meeting. First I want to
thank
everyone
for their forbearance for not submitting during the
auto-approval
window due to my unexpected medical leave of absence.
So that we can hash out any changes ahead of and simply
vote on
adoption at our December meeting, please advise asap of
any
suggested
revisions or corrections.
--
In Liberty,
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
Secretary
-
Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -
LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
at
[2][7][10]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
====================================================================
=====
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
Re-Legalize
All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom *
Repeal
All Gun
Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money *
Abolish The
Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS
and
Repeal
the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure *
Free-market
Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government
Schools To
The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or
[3][8][11]http://www.LP.org
====================================================================
=====
References
1. mailto:[9][12]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
2. [10][13]http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
3. [11][14]http://www.LP.org/
--
In Liberty,
[uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
Secretary - [12]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
at [13][15]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
====================================================================
===
==
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
Re-Legalize
All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All
Gun
Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish
The
Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and
Repeal
the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure *
Free-market
Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools
To
The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [14][16]http://www.LP.org
====================================================================
===
==
--
In Liberty,
[uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
Secretary - [15]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
at [16][17]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
====================================================================
===
==
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
Re-Legalize
All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All
Gun
Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish
The
Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and
Repeal
the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure *
Free-market
Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools
To
The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [17][18]http://www.LP.org
====================================================================
===
==
References
1.
[19]https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-
Minutes-approved.pdf
2. mailto:[20]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
3.
[21]https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-
Minutes-approved.pdf
4. mailto:[22]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
5. mailto:[23]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
6. mailto:[24]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
7. [25]http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
8. [26]http://www.LP.org/
9. mailto:[27]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
10. [28]http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
11. [29]http://www.LP.org/
12. mailto:[30]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
13. [31]http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
14. [32]http://www.lp.org/
15. mailto:[33]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
16. [34]http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
17. [35]http://www.lp.org/
--
In Liberty,
[uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
Secretary - [36]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
at [37]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=======================================================================
==
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The
Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal
the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market
Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To
The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [38]http://www.LP.org
=======================================================================
==
--
In Liberty,
[uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
Secretary - [39]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
at [40]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=======================================================================
==
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The
Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal
the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market
Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To
The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [41]http://www.LP.org
=======================================================================
==
--
In Liberty,
[uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
Secretary - [42]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
at [43]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
=======================================================================
==
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The
Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal
the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market
Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To
The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [44]http://www.LP.org
=======================================================================
==
References
1. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
2. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
3. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
4. https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minu
5. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
6. https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minu
7. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
8. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
9. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
10. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
11. http://www.LP.org/
12. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
13. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
14. http://www.LP.org/
15. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
16. http://www.LP.org/
17. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
18. http://www.LP.org/
19. https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minutes-approved.pdf
20. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
21. https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2017_08_19-20-LNC-Minutes-approved.pdf
22. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
23. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
24. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
25. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
26. http://www.LP.org/
27. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
28. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
29. http://www.LP.org/
30. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
31. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
32. http://www.lp.org/
33. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
34. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
35. http://www.lp.org/
36. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
37. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
38. http://www.lp.org/
39. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
40. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
41. http://www.lp.org/
42. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
43. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
44. http://www.lp.org/
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