[Lnc-business] CORRECTED BALLOT 190214-3 : Appeal from Ruling of Chair

Thu Feb 14 22:55:02 EST 2019

Good evening,

I will vote (on behalf of region 8, in the absence of Mr. ODonnell), in favor of SUSTAINING the ruling of the Chair that would allow the Alternate vote to be counted when the Primary does not enter a vote.

Thanks for all you do for the Liberty of Others.

-Jeff Lyons

LNC 8A

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On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:24 PM -0500, "Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business" <lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

You might have voted.  Joshua Smith or another No may have been persuaded
to change to yes.  These exact circumstances are cited in RONR on prejudice
in voting.

Calling into question doesn’t require a valid Point of Order - it simply
requires lack of trust in the outcome.

I completely (with others once they became away of the proven voting
irregularities) the 2006 convention.  Nothing official can be done but that
presumes there is no harm in general and justified distrust.

Also Alicia sent out these very same instruction for years.  Why did the
Chair not correct her?  Why was this breach allowed to go in so long? In
keeping with my predecessor I sent out the same instructions.  Why was I
not corrected?

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 8:16 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

> I'm going to engage in debate, since this is an appeal from my ruling.
>
> " understand the fairness concern but this just creates unfairness in
> another direction.  Those who voted have a right to rely upon vote counts
> (unchallenged until after deadline) and past procedure."
>
> What is the detriment from the reliance? The only people who could
> have changed the result are Mr. Lyons and Mr. O'Donnell. There's
> nothing any other member of the LNC could have done about this vote
> based on their expectation.
>
> "Being unfair to one side at the expense of
> another is not fairness."
>
> Begs the question.
>
> "And this does call into question nearly
> every single email ballot that had abstentions, not only this term but the
> past two terms. "
>
> In what way? Points of order not taken at the time of the event are
> null and void.
>
> -Nick
>
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 7:00 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
>  wrote:
> >
> > I understand the fairness concern but this just creates unfairness in
> > another direction.  Those who voted have a right to rely upon vote counts
> > (unchallenged until after deadline) and past procedure.  The ONLY fair
> > procedure is to follow our bylaws and rules and then move to reconsider
> > (which I would gladly join in).  Being unfair to one side at the expense
> of
> > another is not fairness.  At all.  And this does call into question
> nearly
> > every single email ballot that had abstentions, not only this term but
> the
> > past two terms.  Is that really what this body wants to do?  I doubt it.
> >
> > -Caryn Ann
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 6:46 PM Joe Bishop-Henchman <
> > joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I vote yes, for two reasons:
> > >
> > > 1. Roberts recognizes two types of votes: yes and no. Anything else -
> > > abstain, present, recusal, blank ballot, spoiled ballot, absence - is a
> > > non-vote. O'Donnell did not vote and under our rules, the alternate
> vote
> > > should substitute in when the regional doesn't vote. Nothing I've seen
> in
> > > Roberts characterizes abstention as a "third" vote option to register
> > > protest or signal mild opposition. That may be past LNC practice, but
> it is
> > > not support by Roberts or our Bylaws so the Chair's ruling is correct.
> It's
> > > the same reason O'Donnell's abstention does not count in the vote
> total. By
> > > not saying yes or no, O'Donnell did not "cast an abstention vote" - a
> > > contradictory term - but abstained from voting, ie, did not vote, ie,
> > > absented himself. Just because we've done it wrong in the past, and
> treated
> > > abstention as a third voting category rather than being the term
> describing
> > > a non-vote, doesn't mean we should continue.
> > >
> > > 2. Voting yes affirms what O'Donnell was trying to do, ie, let Lyons's
> > > vote substitute in. I get they could have inquired on how to do it
> right
> > > prior to the deadline, but voting yes sustains what they meant to do.
> If
> > > the resolution consequently fails we can always reconsider it or
> consider a
> > > slightly amended version. It shouldn't pass because Lyons messed up
> > > procedure.
> > >
> > > If the Chairs ruling is overruled, I suppose we will have at least
> learned
> > > that "I am absent" allows the alternate to vote when "I abstain"
> doesn't.
> > > It's a distinction I find no support for in Roberts, and is silly when
> I
> > > wonder it. Ultimately Roberts likes neither alternates nor email
> ballots,
> > > so I would like to see our Bylaw more clearly define what constitutes
> > > absence from an email ballot. Treating an abstention as a type of vote
> is
> > > another option, but we should create that category by rule, not custom.
> > >
> > > JBH
> > >
> > >
> > > Feb 14, 2019 8:19 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> > > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Due to confusion in prior ballot - this is a corrected ballot.
> > >
> > > BALLOT 190214-3 : Appeal from Ruling of Chair
> > >
> > > We have an electronic mail ballot.
> > >
> > > Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by February 21, 2019 at
> 11:59:59 pm
> > > Pacific time.
> > >
> > > Co-Sponsors:  Bilyeu, Goldstein, Harlos, Longstreth, Mattson
> > >
> > > =============================================
> > >
> > > Motion: Shall the ruling of the Chair on Ballot 190203-1 [Immigration
> > > Resolution] that "no" vote of Regional Alternate Lyons should be
> counted
> > > after Regional Representative O'Donnell registered an unqualified
> express
> > > abstention with the result that the Resolution would change from PASS
> to
> > > FAIL be sustained?
> > >
> > > *A YES VOTE SUSTAINS THE RULING OF THE CHAIR.*
> > >
> > > *A NO VOTE OVERTURNS THE RULING OF THE CHAIR.*
> > >
> > > =============================================
> > >
> > > You can keep track of the Secretary's manual tally of votes here:
> > > https://tinyurl.com/lncvotes2019.  Votes are noted with a link to the
> > > actual ballot cast for verification. You can find the time that the
> manual
> > > tally was last updated at the bottom of the sheet.
> > >
> > > Please notify me of any discrepancies.
> > > --
> > >
> > > *  In Liberty,*
> > >
> > > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> > > Caryn.Ann.
> > > Harlos at LP.org  or Secretary at LP.org.
> > > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> > > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> > > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> > >
> > >
> =========================================================================
> > > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> All
> > > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> > > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> > > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> Tax
> > > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> Services
> > > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> > > Eliminate Regulation *
> > >
> > > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> http://www.lp.org/>*
> > >
> > >
> =========================================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *  In Liberty,*
> >
> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> Caryn.Ann.
> > Harlos at LP.org  or Secretary at LP.org.
> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >
> > =========================================================================
> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> All
> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> Tax
> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> Services
> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> > Eliminate Regulation *
> >
> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> http://www.lp.org/>*
> > =========================================================================
>
-- 

*  In Liberty,*

*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org  or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/

=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *

*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org *
=========================================================================