[Lnc-business] DRAFT MINUTES MARCH MEETING V1

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

Ms. Mattson, as I said in the written discussions here on the topic, my
objection was as stated.  I think I am the best authority on my opinion.  I
don't have an issue with the appendixes as long as it is clear that it
wasn't part of the record.  Whenever the RONR reference is not part of the
discussion, I put in a footnote to make that clear.

I am not comfortable with the combative characterization here.  I believe I
have made my position clear.  And the whole thing that prompted my
objection was a particular comment in the minutes following a ruling of the
Chair that then said (but see RONR xxxx) which blatantly implied the chair
was wrong.  And maybe he was.  But that didn't belong in the body of the
minutes.



On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:48 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

> CAH:   I think you are misremembering a bit [...snip...] I never objected
> to them in a footnote or in an appendix. [...snip...] I had no issues with
> an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I said
> so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR
> references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if
> they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very
> helpful and appropriate there.
>
> Let me demonstrate that I am not misremembering.  At the 04/15/17 LNC
> meeting, I moved to approve the 2016 convention minutes which included
> three appendices:
>
> Appendix A – state by state detail for election results
> Appendix B – election anomalies
> Appendix C – endnotes, which consist of verbatim copy/paste quotations from
> RONR with not a single word of editorializing by me – At the request of Ms.
> Harlos, I added an intro paragraph saying I was the author of the appendix
> and, “It represents the opinion of the Secretary that these are relevant
> passages for the referenced situation.”
>
> Attached is audio of your debate comments, which I have transcribed below:
>
> CAH 04/15/17:  “I appreciate that it’s in the appendix now ‘cause it was my
> original objection.  I’m sorry that I kept the minutes that long.  But I’m
> still kind of unclear why included in minutes we have – I find all those
> appendix reports extraordinarily helpful.  I read them for past years, but
> I have to express some discomfort that they’re included, even though it’s
> not part of the minutes, as part of the minutes.  I think maybe the
> supplementary commentary reports should be completely separated from the
> minutes.  I think members get confused that these are somehow official, or
> that the LNC members are approving of the opinions that are in these
> appendixes.  I find the opinions very valuable, but I think it’s confusing
> to members.”
>
> When we were ready to vote and the chair asked whether there was objection
> to approving the minutes, you said, “Again, I think the appendices – so I
> have an objection.”  We conducted a roll call vote, and you voted against
> the motion.
>
> You very clearly did object to them being in an appendix.
>
> Your vocabulary choice was plural (appendices), but you were not talking
> about the state-by-state election details or the report of election
> anomalies.  The “opinions” which you thought would “confuse” the members
> were the verbatim RONR quotes in appendix C.
>
> So to reiterate my original point about the draft March 2019 minutes,
> you've started adding more and more RONR references, which were apparently
> only objectionable when I did them, but not when you do them.  Beyond the
> rule references, this term’s minutes contain large volumes of opinion in
> the form of debate commentary, public comments, etc., and you have argued
> that including such opinion is important for “transparency,” for informing
> the members of “significant” opinions, and that it’s our “custom.”
>
> RONR references in minutes drafted by me?   Objectionable, and “opinion”
> shouldn’t be included.
> RONR references plus large volumes of extensive opinion when drafted by
> you?  Noble, customary, and transparent.
>
> -Alicia
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:02 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > In a separate email V2 of the minutes is being sent.  I wanted to comment
> > on a few of Ms. Mattson's suggestions (all of them were incorporated):
> >
> > p. 35 -  :-)  Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an
> experiment
> > as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was determined
> > that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.”  If we
> > acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those
> > proceedings should not be entered into the minutes.
> >
> > LOVED that as I didn't know that.
> >
> > p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection,
> Ms.
> > Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show
> of
> > hands with a vote count of 13-3.”  This wording choice muddles two
> separate
> > votes.  I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s amendment.
> > There was no objection.  Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s
> > amendment, not on the motion for the previous question.
> >
> > p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later
> > sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question which
> > PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…”  Mr. Smith
> > moved the previous question.  There was no objection.  Then the Goldstein
> > amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count.
> >
> > I see how it can be read as muddling them but that is not how I read
> > them... the previous question was without objection, then that question
> > (the previous one just called) passed by ...... but I changed the wording
> > to alleviate any potential confusion.
> >
> > ==[Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you
> > voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they
> > contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text
> > written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR.  You said
> > you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same
> > document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused”
> > that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and
> > argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an
> > opinion.===
> >
> > I think you are misremembering a bit - my objection was generally to RONR
> > being in the text when they were not cited in the proceedings (and I only
> > cite RONR in the body when it is cited, otherwise I put it to a footnote
> to
> > make that clear) but specifically, in the case of the 2016 convention
> > minutes, there *was* editorializing.  There was a ruling of the chair but
> > then a parenthetical statement that said (*but see RONR.....)* which
> > implied or suggested to the reader that the Chair was wrong, and that is
> > what I objected to.  I never objected to them in a footnote or in an
> > appendix.  I went and looked up my email where I objected (dated 9/12/16
> )
> > where I stated: *Alicia, I still believe the inclusion of RONR
> > references  is improper.  It is interpretive and not properly part of the
> > record particularly when they imply the ruling of the Chair might have
> been
> > incorrect.  I believe appendices that are presented as interpretative are
> > entirely different.*
> >
> > I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where
> > this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were
> > approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and it
> > was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you did
> > and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
> >
> > Attached are the items you requested (the corrected minutes are coming in
> > my next email)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:45 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <
> caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those
> >> were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input
> >> first.
> >>
> >> Expect in the next few days.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
> >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of
> the
> >>> following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies
> of
> >>> them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
> >>>
> >>> - Staff Report
> >>> - Blockchain Committee
> >>> - Region 2 Report
> >>>
> >>> Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from
> there.
> >>> Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection
> >>> for
> >>> this meeting?  Thanks!
> >>>
> >>> -Alicia
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> >>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March
> minutes.
> >>> > Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and
> >>> gave
> >>> > their input.  I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson
> >>> before
> >>> > posting but I understand things have been really busy with the
> >>> California
> >>> > convention.
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> >
> >>> > *  In Liberty,*
> >>> >
> >>> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> >>> > Caryn.Ann.
> >>> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> >>> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >>> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >>> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> =========================================================================
> >>> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
> Re-Legalize
> >>> All
> >>> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
> Laws *
> >>> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
> End
> >>> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
> Income
> >>> Tax
> >>> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> >>> Services
> >>> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector
> *
> >>> > Eliminate Regulation *
> >>> >
> >>> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> >>> http://www.lp.org/
> >>> > >*
> >>> >
> >>>
> =========================================================================
> >>> >
> >>>
> >> --
> >>
> >> *  In Liberty,*
> >>
> >> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> Caryn.Ann.
> >> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> >> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >>
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> >> All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
> Laws *
> >> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> >> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> Tax
> >> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> Services
> >> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> >> Eliminate Regulation *
> >>
> >> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org
> >> <http://www.lp.org/>*
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *  In Liberty,*
> >
> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> Caryn.Ann.
> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >
> > =========================================================================
> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> All
> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> Tax
> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> Services
> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> > Eliminate Regulation *
> >
> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> http://www.lp.org/>*
> > =========================================================================
> >
>


-- 

*  In Liberty,*

*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/

=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *

*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================