[Lnc-business] DRAFT MINUTES MARCH MEETING V1

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I will also add, but I am not going to dedicate any time with this (IMHO
non-troversy), that there were many many times in your prior minutes that
you included extra items, including humourous asides which I did not (and
do not) object to.

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 2:41 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
wrote:

> Ms. Mattson, as I said in the written discussions here on the topic, my
> objection was as stated.  I think I am the best authority on my opinion.  I
> don't have an issue with the appendixes as long as it is clear that it
> wasn't part of the record.  Whenever the RONR reference is not part of the
> discussion, I put in a footnote to make that clear.
>
> I am not comfortable with the combative characterization here.  I believe
> I have made my position clear.  And the whole thing that prompted my
> objection was a particular comment in the minutes following a ruling of the
> Chair that then said (but see RONR xxxx) which blatantly implied the chair
> was wrong.  And maybe he was.  But that didn't belong in the body of the
> minutes.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 1:48 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
>> CAH:   I think you are misremembering a bit [...snip...] I never objected
>> to them in a footnote or in an appendix. [...snip...] I had no issues with
>> an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where this was discussed I
>> said
>> so as well, and the convention minutes were approved with the RONR
>> references being taken out of the main text and it was left up to you if
>> they would be put in as an appendix - which you did and they were very
>> helpful and appropriate there.
>>
>> Let me demonstrate that I am not misremembering.  At the 04/15/17 LNC
>> meeting, I moved to approve the 2016 convention minutes which included
>> three appendices:
>>
>> Appendix A – state by state detail for election results
>> Appendix B – election anomalies
>> Appendix C – endnotes, which consist of verbatim copy/paste quotations
>> from
>> RONR with not a single word of editorializing by me – At the request of
>> Ms.
>> Harlos, I added an intro paragraph saying I was the author of the appendix
>> and, “It represents the opinion of the Secretary that these are relevant
>> passages for the referenced situation.”
>>
>> Attached is audio of your debate comments, which I have transcribed below:
>>
>> CAH 04/15/17:  “I appreciate that it’s in the appendix now ‘cause it was
>> my
>> original objection.  I’m sorry that I kept the minutes that long.  But I’m
>> still kind of unclear why included in minutes we have – I find all those
>> appendix reports extraordinarily helpful.  I read them for past years, but
>> I have to express some discomfort that they’re included, even though it’s
>> not part of the minutes, as part of the minutes.  I think maybe the
>> supplementary commentary reports should be completely separated from the
>> minutes.  I think members get confused that these are somehow official, or
>> that the LNC members are approving of the opinions that are in these
>> appendixes.  I find the opinions very valuable, but I think it’s confusing
>> to members.”
>>
>> When we were ready to vote and the chair asked whether there was objection
>> to approving the minutes, you said, “Again, I think the appendices – so I
>> have an objection.”  We conducted a roll call vote, and you voted against
>> the motion.
>>
>> You very clearly did object to them being in an appendix.
>>
>> Your vocabulary choice was plural (appendices), but you were not talking
>> about the state-by-state election details or the report of election
>> anomalies.  The “opinions” which you thought would “confuse” the members
>> were the verbatim RONR quotes in appendix C.
>>
>> So to reiterate my original point about the draft March 2019 minutes,
>> you've started adding more and more RONR references, which were apparently
>> only objectionable when I did them, but not when you do them.  Beyond the
>> rule references, this term’s minutes contain large volumes of opinion in
>> the form of debate commentary, public comments, etc., and you have argued
>> that including such opinion is important for “transparency,” for informing
>> the members of “significant” opinions, and that it’s our “custom.”
>>
>> RONR references in minutes drafted by me?   Objectionable, and “opinion”
>> shouldn’t be included.
>> RONR references plus large volumes of extensive opinion when drafted by
>> you?  Noble, customary, and transparent.
>>
>> -Alicia
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:02 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > In a separate email V2 of the minutes is being sent.  I wanted to
>> comment
>> > on a few of Ms. Mattson's suggestions (all of them were incorporated):
>> >
>> > p. 35 -  :-)  Footnote 24 indicates that, “The LNC conducted an
>> experiment
>> > as if they were acting as a Committee of the Whole, and it was
>> determined
>> > that the body preferred to move this vote to email vote by 11-3.”  If we
>> > acted as if a committee of the whole, then RONR p. 471 says those
>> > proceedings should not be entered into the minutes.
>> >
>> > LOVED that as I didn't know that.
>> >
>> > p. 20 – The first line of the current draft reads, “Without objection,
>> Ms.
>> > Mattson moved the previous question which subsequently PASSED by a show
>> of
>> > hands with a vote count of 13-3.”  This wording choice muddles two
>> separate
>> > votes.  I moved the previous question on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s
>> amendment.
>> > There was no objection.  Then the 13-3 vote was on Mr. Bishop-Henchman’s
>> > amendment, not on the motion for the previous question.
>> >
>> > p. 20 – There is a similar muddling of two separate votes in the later
>> > sentence, “Without objection, Mr. Smith moved the previous question
>> which
>> > PASSED by a show of hands with a vote count of 13-3, so that…”  Mr.
>> Smith
>> > moved the previous question.  There was no objection.  Then the
>> Goldstein
>> > amendment was adopted with the 13-3 vote count.
>> >
>> > I see how it can be read as muddling them but that is not how I read
>> > them... the previous question was without objection, then that question
>> > (the previous one just called) passed by ...... but I changed the
>> wording
>> > to alleviate any potential confusion.
>> >
>> > ==[Caution: I’m feeling perturbed as I write this item.] Ms. Harlos, you
>> > voted against approval of the 2016 convention minutes because they
>> > contained an appendix of endnotes which contained no editorializing text
>> > written by me, nothing but verbatim copy/paste text from RONR.  You said
>> > you were uncomfortable that the added RONR references were in the same
>> > document as the official record, argued that members would be “confused”
>> > that maybe the LNC was approving of the “opinions” in the appendix, and
>> > argued that the party should not publish minutes that contain an
>> > opinion.===
>> >
>> > I think you are misremembering a bit - my objection was generally to
>> RONR
>> > being in the text when they were not cited in the proceedings (and I
>> only
>> > cite RONR in the body when it is cited, otherwise I put it to a
>> footnote to
>> > make that clear) but specifically, in the case of the 2016 convention
>> > minutes, there *was* editorializing.  There was a ruling of the chair
>> but
>> > then a parenthetical statement that said (*but see RONR.....)* which
>> > implied or suggested to the reader that the Chair was wrong, and that is
>> > what I objected to.  I never objected to them in a footnote or in an
>> > appendix.  I went and looked up my email where I objected (dated
>> 9/12/16 )
>> > where I stated: *Alicia, I still believe the inclusion of RONR
>> > references  is improper.  It is interpretive and not properly part of
>> the
>> > record particularly when they imply the ruling of the Chair might have
>> been
>> > incorrect.  I believe appendices that are presented as interpretative
>> are
>> > entirely different.*
>> >
>> > I had no issues with an appendix or footnotes and at the meeting where
>> > this was discussed I said so as well, and the convention minutes were
>> > approved with the RONR references being taken out of the main text and
>> it
>> > was left up to you if they would be put in as an appendix - which you
>> did
>> > and they were very helpful and appropriate there.
>> >
>> > Attached are the items you requested (the corrected minutes are coming
>> in
>> > my next email)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:45 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <
>> caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I will send you those reports and review your comments. Some of those
>> >> were caught by Dr. Lark and in an upcoming V2, but I wanted your input
>> >> first.
>> >>
>> >> Expect in the next few days.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 2:02 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
>> >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> For the following items from the March meeting, I don't see copies of
>> the
>> >>> following reports on the email list where I can download clean copies
>> of
>> >>> them (as opposed to the graphic versions inserted in the minutes):
>> >>>
>> >>> - Staff Report
>> >>> - Blockchain Committee
>> >>> - Region 2 Report
>> >>>
>> >>> Two of them are in the OneNote, but they're not downloadable from
>> there.
>> >>> Could someone send me the original documents to complete my collection
>> >>> for
>> >>> this meeting?  Thanks!
>> >>>
>> >>> -Alicia
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
>> >>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > Hello everyone, attached please find the V1 draft of the March
>> minutes.
>> >>> > Dr. Lark, Dr. Moulton, and Mr. Dehn kindly gave them a read over and
>> >>> gave
>> >>> > their input.  I was really hoping to get the input of Ms. Mattson
>> >>> before
>> >>> > posting but I understand things have been really busy with the
>> >>> California
>> >>> > convention.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> >
>> >>> > *  In Liberty,*
>> >>> >
>> >>> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> >>> > Caryn.Ann.
>> >>> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> >>> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> >>> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> >>> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> =========================================================================
>> >>> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
>> Re-Legalize
>> >>> All
>> >>> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
>> Laws *
>> >>> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
>> End
>> >>> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
>> Income
>> >>> Tax
>> >>> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
>> >>> Services
>> >>> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private
>> Sector *
>> >>> > Eliminate Regulation *
>> >>> >
>> >>> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
>> >>> http://www.lp.org/
>> >>> > >*
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> =========================================================================
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> *  In Liberty,*
>> >>
>> >> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> Caryn.Ann.
>> >> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> >> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> >> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> >> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >>
>> >>
>> =========================================================================
>> >> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>> >> All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
>> Laws *
>> >> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
>> >> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
>> Tax
>> >> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
>> Services
>> >> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
>> >> Eliminate Regulation *
>> >>
>> >> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org
>> >> <http://www.lp.org/>*
>> >>
>> =========================================================================
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > *  In Liberty,*
>> >
>> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> Caryn.Ann.
>> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >
>> >
>> =========================================================================
>> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>> All
>> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
>> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
>> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
>> Tax
>> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
>> Services
>> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
>> > Eliminate Regulation *
>> >
>> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
>> http://www.lp.org/>*
>> >
>> =========================================================================
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *  In Liberty,*
>
> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>
> =========================================================================
> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> Eliminate Regulation *
>
> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
> =========================================================================
>


-- 

*  In Liberty,*

*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/

=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *

*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================