[Lnc-business] Update from Illinois

Wed Jul 1 15:41:06 EDT 2020

So they didn't read the part in orange just above the questions, which 
states it's in Orlando.

---
Tim Hagan
Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee

On 2020-07-01 12:32, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> Just told by a delegate that they thought it meant Orange County 
> California
> and voted no.
> 
> That’s what you get when you rush out a poll!
> 
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:26 PM Caryn Ann Harlos 
> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> It was a simplistic poison pill poll.
>> 
>> Do you want to go from a nice hotel to a county building with no 
>> further
>> details.
>> 
>> Way to salt the soup.  So tired of these bullsh*t political games.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:21 PM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> It would be silly to ask the delegates a question about whether they
>>> approve of the move from Shingle Creek to Rosen Centre, as it is only 
>>> one
>>> dimension of a multi-dimensional decision.  They don't have the
>>> information
>>> to know whether it's an apples-to-apples deal, what the financial
>>> implications are for the party if we don't accept it.  They'll likely 
>>> say
>>> no because Shingle Creek is a nicer place, and why wouldn't they 
>>> prefer a
>>> nicer place?  That's all they'll consider if we asked such a 
>>> question.
>>> 
>>> It's a lovely thought that we can just recover damages from Rosen, 
>>> but in
>>> reality we could easily be out-of-pocket as much in litigation costs 
>>> as
>>> we'd recover in damages, and it could take a couple of years to do 
>>> that.
>>> Even if we also recovered litigation costs, we'd be out the cash in 
>>> the
>>> meantime, and we don't really have cash to spare.
>>> 
>>> The COC has little choice but to proceed with the assumption that 
>>> we're
>>> moving ahead with Orlando.  The LNC has not cancelled.  The hotel is
>>> offering us an alternative at a facility we have previously found to 
>>> be
>>> acceptable (though we didn't use the OCCC in 2016).  Some delegate 
>>> room
>>> reservations start in 2 days.  Other delegates are on the verge of
>>> starting
>>> to drive or take trains to Orlando.  We are having to incur some 
>>> costs
>>> this
>>> week, else we lose the opportunity to have those things happen at all 
>>> when
>>> the convention proceeds.
>>> 
>>> It is hard to pin down the financial result if the event were to be
>>> cancelled.  Some expenditures can't be recovered unless the hotel is 
>>> made
>>> to repay us for them.  We don't know how many delegates would ask for
>>> refunds.  Because of the terms of our credit card processing 
>>> contract, we
>>> would eat the credit card fees on those refunds.  We don't have the 
>>> cash
>>> to
>>> refund all the funds collected because even after I pointed out that 
>>> the
>>> convention funds were being raided for deficit spending in party
>>> operations, the LNC would not act quickly to stop the problem from 
>>> getting
>>> worse...and it did get worse before the LNC finally acted.  We would 
>>> lose
>>> the opportunity for general party fundraising which is often a large 
>>> boost
>>> to our ballot access efforts in presidential years.  It's all a giant
>>> question mark, but it leans toward negative impact.  It is the duty 
>>> of LNC
>>> members to weigh all of these factors and many more (like impact on
>>> delegates with sunk costs) and not just make a knee-jerk reaction to 
>>> a
>>> single factor.
>>> 
>>> Managing the party assets is one of our key duties.  The LNC is not 
>>> in
>>> great financial shape.  The best financial result for us is to either 
>>> have
>>> them honor the Shingle Creek deal, or accept an alternative with 
>>> Rosen
>>> Centre / OCCC so long as we aren't responsible for costs we would not 
>>> have
>>> incurred in the original deal.  The COC has a bullet list from last
>>> night's
>>> meeting for what else they need to do for us, and I know that is 
>>> being
>>> actively addressed today.
>>> 
>>> -Alicia
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:58 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
>>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > I do think it is highly possible to recover those costs from Rosen.
>>> > Nothing is a slam dunk in the legal word.  I want to be clear - I think
>>> > they dealt us dirty and that Mr. Rosen blew smoke up our rears and
>>> broke a
>>> > promise.  I keep hearing we cannot cancel because we will taint that
>>> > relationship.  It is already tainted by his breaking his word.  He put
>>> us
>>> > in this situation.  That is a simple fact, and I do not forgive that.
>>> >
>>> > That does not excuse us however from fulfilling the vote of the
>>> delegates,
>>> > but have no doubts, I will want to pursue the fullest recovery from
>>> Rosen
>>> > if it comes to that.
>>> >
>>> > *In Liberty,*
>>> >
>>> > * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
>>> > (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
>>> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
>>> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
>>> faux
>>> > pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:42 AM erin.adams--- via Lnc-business <
>>> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > For US to pay *
>>> > >
>>> > > Erin Adams Region 7 alt.
>>> > >
>>> > > On Jul 1, 2020 12:41 PM, erin.adams at lp.org wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > I think they are obligated to pay US because they are in breech in an
>>> > > amount sufficient for US to AVG and other incurred expenses
>>> > >
>>> > > Erin Adams Region 7 alt.
>>> > >
>>> > > On Jul 1, 2020 12:38 PM, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business <
>>> > > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Do you think that Rosen is obligated to pay AVG if they are in breach?
>>> > > I'd love to hear a legal opinion from Mr. Hall about what we could
>>> > > recover from Rosen with or without litigation.
>>> > >
>>> > > ---
>>> > > Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
>>> > > Libertarian National Committee
>>> > > Convention Oversight Committee
>>> > > 317-850-0726 Cell
>>> > >
>>> > > On 2020-07-01 13:07, Daniel Fishman wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > That just ain't so Sam -- unless we agree to accept their
>>> alternative,
>>> > > they are in breach. Our reason is we want to be at Shingle Creek which
>>> > was
>>> > > what they promised. And they aren't going to give it to us.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I think a poll of the delegates is warranted. I'm adding Tim's
>>> > > language.  I welcome other suggestions.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > ---
>>> > > > Daniel Fishman
>>> > > > Executive Director
>>> > > > The Libertarian Party
>>> > > > Join Us [1]
>>> > > >
>>> > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:51 PM Sam Goldstein <sam.goldstein at lp.org
>>> >
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > >> Perhaps you should include in that poll the LP will be in the hole
>>> > > >> somewhere over $100k if we cancel at this late date just because we
>>> > > want
>>> > > >> to without a reason covered by the Force Majeure clause in the AVG
>>> > > >> contract in addition to other costs.
>>> > > >>
>>> > > >> ---
>>> > > >> Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
>>> > > >> Libertarian National Committee
>>> > > >> Convention Oversight Committee
>>> > > >> 317-850-0726 Cell
>>> > > >>
>>> > > >> On 2020-07-01 12:39, Daniel Fishman via Lnc-business wrote:
>>> > > >>> Suggested poll to the delegates:
>>> > > >>>
>>> > > >>> 1 - Are you currently planning to attend the second sitting
>>> > in-person?
>>> > > >>> 2 -
>>> > > >>> Do you support: - Relocating the second sitting to the Orange
>>> County
>>> > > >>> Convention Center - Cancellation of the in-person second sitting
>>> and
>>> > > >>> resuming business online
>>> > > >>>
>>> > > >>>
>>> > > >>> ---
>>> > > >>> Daniel Fishman
>>> > > >>> Executive Director
>>> > > >>> The Libertarian Party
>>> > > >>> Join Us <http://www.lp.org/join>
>>> > > >>>
>>> > > >>>
>>> > > >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:17 PM William Redpath via Lnc-business <
>>> > > >>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> > > >>>
>>> > > >>>> I just spoke with LPIL Chair and Delegation Chair Steve Suess.
>>> The
>>> > > >>>> LPIL
>>> > > >>>> had a full slate of 37 delegates for the national convention.  Of
>>> > > >>>> those,
>>> > > >>>> he says, now only 5 are going to Orlando (I know, probably not
>>> all
>>> > 37
>>> > > >>>> would have gone to Austin, but still...).  And, we've got a week
>>> to
>>> > > go
>>> > > >>>> for possible further attrition.
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> I don't know the economics of this convention well enough to
>>> > > >>>> prognosticate what the LNC should do to maximize its gain or
>>> > minimize
>>> > > >>>> its loss from this convention, but could it be that cancellation
>>> is
>>> > > >>>> the
>>> > > >>>> least bad financial option at this point?  I don't know.  I will
>>> > > leave
>>> > > >>>> it to Bette Rose, et al. to number crunch that.
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> A fair amount has been made on this list about potential delegate
>>> > > >>>> personal financial losses.  As sportscaster Warner Wolf used to
>>> say,
>>> > > >>>> "Let's go to the videotape!"
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> Delegates can ask for their convention package payment back (many
>>> > > will
>>> > > >>>> not, and fewer will, if we ask nicely).  They can cancel the
>>> hotel
>>> > at
>>> > > >>>> no
>>> > > >>>> penalty at this time.  They may not get a refund from their
>>> airline
>>> > > >>>> ticket but will almost certainly get full credit on a future
>>> ticket
>>> > > to
>>> > > >>>> be used over the next year or two.  I think very few people would
>>> > > >>>> suffer
>>> > > >>>> economic loss, and there might be a net economic gain if the
>>> > employed
>>> > > >>>> save some vacation days.
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> Don't necessarily look to hotel reservations to judge
>>> attendance.  I
>>> > > >>>> surmise that many reservations have not been cancelled yet.
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> The "Will of the Delegates" did vote for a second sitting in
>>> > > >>>> Orlando--over a tenth of a year ago.  A lot has happened since
>>> then
>>> > > >>>> that
>>> > > >>>> could not have been foreseen.
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> Yes, some people are speaking up loudly on both sides of this
>>> issue,
>>> > > >>>> but
>>> > > >>>> what does the actual body of delegates think NOW?  That is the
>>> truly
>>> > > >>>> relevant question, and if it is to go forward with the second
>>> > sitting
>>> > > >>>> in
>>> > > >>>> Orlando, so be it.  However, if that were to occur without remote
>>> > > >>>> access, so that delegates can participate in the convention from
>>> > > >>>> wherever they are, that would have very harmful ramifications for
>>> > the
>>> > > >>>> LP.
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> I do think a poll of the delegates should be taken again ASAP to
>>> > > >>>> ascertain across all delegations #1) what are their current
>>> > > attendance
>>> > > >>>> plans?, and #2) do they want the second sitting to occur July
>>> 9-12?
>>> > > I
>>> > > >>>> think #1 is far more important than #2 in forming a decision.
>>> After
>>> > > >>>> all, what is going to happen if only one-seventh of the
>>> credentialed
>>> > > >>>> delegates show?
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> I think all of us greatly respect the convention knowledge and
>>> very
>>> > > >>>> hard
>>> > > >>>> work of the COC for both Austin and Orlando, and I would very
>>> much
>>> > > >>>> regret little to nothing ultimately coming of it in 2020.  But, I
>>> > > >>>> think
>>> > > >>>> there is still time, for the overall good of the Libertarian
>>> Party,
>>> > > to
>>> > > >>>> get a good handle on what all of the delegates are thinking right
>>> > > now,
>>> > > >>>> and that could be effected very quickly.
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> Bill Redpath
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>> On 2020-06-30 23:09, john.phillips--- via Lnc-business wrote:
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > > >>>>> You remember I already did that ;)
>>> > > >>>>>
>>> > > >>>>> Teasing aside, I 100% support this and wholeheartedly sign on.
>>> > > Thank you
>>> > > >>>>>
>>> > > >>>>> John Phillips
>>> > > >>>>> Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
>>> > > >>>>> Cell 217-412-5973
>>> > > >>>>>
>>> > > >>>>> On Jun 30, 2020 11:02 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
>>> > > >>>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> > > >>>>>
>>> > > >>>>>> I call upon my fellow LNC members to promise to support and
>>> work
>>> > > for
>>> > > >>>> remote
>>> > > >>>>>> participation if the in person convention goes forward.
>>> > > >>>>>>
>>> > > >>>>>> I do so pledge.
>>> > > >>>>>>
>>> > > >>>>>> *  In Liberty,*
>>> > > >>>>>> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's
>>> > > Syndrome
>>> > > >>>>>> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
>>> > > >>>>>> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.
>>> If
>>> > > anyone
>>> > > >>>>>> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other
>>> > > social
>>> > > >>>> faux
>>> > > >>>>>> pas) in an actual email, please contact me privately and let me
>>> > > know.  *
>>> > > >>>>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > Links:
>>> > > ------
>>> > > [1] http://www.lp.org/join
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> 
>> --
>> 
>> *In Liberty,*
>> 
>> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
>> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
>> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If 
>> anyone
>> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social 
>> faux
>> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
>> 
>> --
> 
> *In Liberty,*
> 
> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social 
> faux
> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *