[Lnc-business] Update from Illinois

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

Just passing along.

I’m tapping out until there is a meeting.

I’m out of town all weekend and unavailable unless at a very odd hour.

None of this is about freedom any more.  It’s fear, lack of constancy to
make a decision and stick with it, and political games.

If this committee makes the (imho) unconscionable and cowardly (again my
opinion) to cancel, I’ll do my duty to make sure whatever we do to replace
is a success.

I will vote NO.  I would have considered a different vote if a non poison
pill poll went out yesterday.  It didn’t.

A yes vote betrays and robs our delegates.  Trust once lost is often never
regained.

See you all at any duly called meeting.  I’m done.

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:41 PM Tim Hagan via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

> So they didn't read the part in orange just above the questions, which
> states it's in Orlando.
>
> ---
> Tim Hagan
> Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee
>
> On 2020-07-01 12:32, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> > Just told by a delegate that they thought it meant Orange County
> > California
> > and voted no.
> >
> > That’s what you get when you rush out a poll!
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:26 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
> > <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> It was a simplistic poison pill poll.
> >>
> >> Do you want to go from a nice hotel to a county building with no
> >> further
> >> details.
> >>
> >> Way to salt the soup.  So tired of these bullsh*t political games.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:21 PM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
> >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> It would be silly to ask the delegates a question about whether they
> >>> approve of the move from Shingle Creek to Rosen Centre, as it is only
> >>> one
> >>> dimension of a multi-dimensional decision.  They don't have the
> >>> information
> >>> to know whether it's an apples-to-apples deal, what the financial
> >>> implications are for the party if we don't accept it.  They'll likely
> >>> say
> >>> no because Shingle Creek is a nicer place, and why wouldn't they
> >>> prefer a
> >>> nicer place?  That's all they'll consider if we asked such a
> >>> question.
> >>>
> >>> It's a lovely thought that we can just recover damages from Rosen,
> >>> but in
> >>> reality we could easily be out-of-pocket as much in litigation costs
> >>> as
> >>> we'd recover in damages, and it could take a couple of years to do
> >>> that.
> >>> Even if we also recovered litigation costs, we'd be out the cash in
> >>> the
> >>> meantime, and we don't really have cash to spare.
> >>>
> >>> The COC has little choice but to proceed with the assumption that
> >>> we're
> >>> moving ahead with Orlando.  The LNC has not cancelled.  The hotel is
> >>> offering us an alternative at a facility we have previously found to
> >>> be
> >>> acceptable (though we didn't use the OCCC in 2016).  Some delegate
> >>> room
> >>> reservations start in 2 days.  Other delegates are on the verge of
> >>> starting
> >>> to drive or take trains to Orlando.  We are having to incur some
> >>> costs
> >>> this
> >>> week, else we lose the opportunity to have those things happen at all
> >>> when
> >>> the convention proceeds.
> >>>
> >>> It is hard to pin down the financial result if the event were to be
> >>> cancelled.  Some expenditures can't be recovered unless the hotel is
> >>> made
> >>> to repay us for them.  We don't know how many delegates would ask for
> >>> refunds.  Because of the terms of our credit card processing
> >>> contract, we
> >>> would eat the credit card fees on those refunds.  We don't have the
> >>> cash
> >>> to
> >>> refund all the funds collected because even after I pointed out that
> >>> the
> >>> convention funds were being raided for deficit spending in party
> >>> operations, the LNC would not act quickly to stop the problem from
> >>> getting
> >>> worse...and it did get worse before the LNC finally acted.  We would
> >>> lose
> >>> the opportunity for general party fundraising which is often a large
> >>> boost
> >>> to our ballot access efforts in presidential years.  It's all a giant
> >>> question mark, but it leans toward negative impact.  It is the duty
> >>> of LNC
> >>> members to weigh all of these factors and many more (like impact on
> >>> delegates with sunk costs) and not just make a knee-jerk reaction to
> >>> a
> >>> single factor.
> >>>
> >>> Managing the party assets is one of our key duties.  The LNC is not
> >>> in
> >>> great financial shape.  The best financial result for us is to either
> >>> have
> >>> them honor the Shingle Creek deal, or accept an alternative with
> >>> Rosen
> >>> Centre / OCCC so long as we aren't responsible for costs we would not
> >>> have
> >>> incurred in the original deal.  The COC has a bullet list from last
> >>> night's
> >>> meeting for what else they need to do for us, and I know that is
> >>> being
> >>> actively addressed today.
> >>>
> >>> -Alicia
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:58 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> >>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > I do think it is highly possible to recover those costs from Rosen.
> >>> > Nothing is a slam dunk in the legal word.  I want to be clear - I
> think
> >>> > they dealt us dirty and that Mr. Rosen blew smoke up our rears and
> >>> broke a
> >>> > promise.  I keep hearing we cannot cancel because we will taint that
> >>> > relationship.  It is already tainted by his breaking his word.  He
> put
> >>> us
> >>> > in this situation.  That is a simple fact, and I do not forgive that.
> >>> >
> >>> > That does not excuse us however from fulfilling the vote of the
> >>> delegates,
> >>> > but have no doubts, I will want to pursue the fullest recovery from
> >>> Rosen
> >>> > if it comes to that.
> >>> >
> >>> > *In Liberty,*
> >>> >
> >>> > * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's
> Syndrome
> >>> > (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> >>> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If
> anyone
> >>> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
> >>> faux
> >>> > pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:42 AM erin.adams--- via Lnc-business <
> >>> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > For US to pay *
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Erin Adams Region 7 alt.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Jul 1, 2020 12:41 PM, erin.adams at lp.org wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I think they are obligated to pay US because they are in breech in
> an
> >>> > > amount sufficient for US to AVG and other incurred expenses
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Erin Adams Region 7 alt.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Jul 1, 2020 12:38 PM, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business <
> >>> > > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Do you think that Rosen is obligated to pay AVG if they are in
> breach?
> >>> > > I'd love to hear a legal opinion from Mr. Hall about what we could
> >>> > > recover from Rosen with or without litigation.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > ---
> >>> > > Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
> >>> > > Libertarian National Committee
> >>> > > Convention Oversight Committee
> >>> > > 317-850-0726 Cell
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On 2020-07-01 13:07, Daniel Fishman wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > That just ain't so Sam -- unless we agree to accept their
> >>> alternative,
> >>> > > they are in breach. Our reason is we want to be at Shingle Creek
> which
> >>> > was
> >>> > > what they promised. And they aren't going to give it to us.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > I think a poll of the delegates is warranted. I'm adding Tim's
> >>> > > language.  I welcome other suggestions.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > ---
> >>> > > > Daniel Fishman
> >>> > > > Executive Director
> >>> > > > The Libertarian Party
> >>> > > > Join Us [1]
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:51 PM Sam Goldstein <
> sam.goldstein at lp.org
> >>> >
> >>> > > wrote:
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > >> Perhaps you should include in that poll the LP will be in the
> hole
> >>> > > >> somewhere over $100k if we cancel at this late date just
> because we
> >>> > > want
> >>> > > >> to without a reason covered by the Force Majeure clause in the
> AVG
> >>> > > >> contract in addition to other costs.
> >>> > > >>
> >>> > > >> ---
> >>> > > >> Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
> >>> > > >> Libertarian National Committee
> >>> > > >> Convention Oversight Committee
> >>> > > >> 317-850-0726 Cell
> >>> > > >>
> >>> > > >> On 2020-07-01 12:39, Daniel Fishman via Lnc-business wrote:
> >>> > > >>> Suggested poll to the delegates:
> >>> > > >>>
> >>> > > >>> 1 - Are you currently planning to attend the second sitting
> >>> > in-person?
> >>> > > >>> 2 -
> >>> > > >>> Do you support: - Relocating the second sitting to the Orange
> >>> County
> >>> > > >>> Convention Center - Cancellation of the in-person second
> sitting
> >>> and
> >>> > > >>> resuming business online
> >>> > > >>>
> >>> > > >>>
> >>> > > >>> ---
> >>> > > >>> Daniel Fishman
> >>> > > >>> Executive Director
> >>> > > >>> The Libertarian Party
> >>> > > >>> Join Us <http://www.lp.org/join>
> >>> > > >>>
> >>> > > >>>
> >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:17 PM William Redpath via
> Lnc-business <
> >>> > > >>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>> > > >>>
> >>> > > >>>> I just spoke with LPIL Chair and Delegation Chair Steve Suess.
> >>> The
> >>> > > >>>> LPIL
> >>> > > >>>> had a full slate of 37 delegates for the national
> convention.  Of
> >>> > > >>>> those,
> >>> > > >>>> he says, now only 5 are going to Orlando (I know, probably not
> >>> all
> >>> > 37
> >>> > > >>>> would have gone to Austin, but still...).  And, we've got a
> week
> >>> to
> >>> > > go
> >>> > > >>>> for possible further attrition.
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> I don't know the economics of this convention well enough to
> >>> > > >>>> prognosticate what the LNC should do to maximize its gain or
> >>> > minimize
> >>> > > >>>> its loss from this convention, but could it be that
> cancellation
> >>> is
> >>> > > >>>> the
> >>> > > >>>> least bad financial option at this point?  I don't know.  I
> will
> >>> > > leave
> >>> > > >>>> it to Bette Rose, et al. to number crunch that.
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> A fair amount has been made on this list about potential
> delegate
> >>> > > >>>> personal financial losses.  As sportscaster Warner Wolf used
> to
> >>> say,
> >>> > > >>>> "Let's go to the videotape!"
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> Delegates can ask for their convention package payment back
> (many
> >>> > > will
> >>> > > >>>> not, and fewer will, if we ask nicely).  They can cancel the
> >>> hotel
> >>> > at
> >>> > > >>>> no
> >>> > > >>>> penalty at this time.  They may not get a refund from their
> >>> airline
> >>> > > >>>> ticket but will almost certainly get full credit on a future
> >>> ticket
> >>> > > to
> >>> > > >>>> be used over the next year or two.  I think very few people
> would
> >>> > > >>>> suffer
> >>> > > >>>> economic loss, and there might be a net economic gain if the
> >>> > employed
> >>> > > >>>> save some vacation days.
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> Don't necessarily look to hotel reservations to judge
> >>> attendance.  I
> >>> > > >>>> surmise that many reservations have not been cancelled yet.
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> The "Will of the Delegates" did vote for a second sitting in
> >>> > > >>>> Orlando--over a tenth of a year ago.  A lot has happened since
> >>> then
> >>> > > >>>> that
> >>> > > >>>> could not have been foreseen.
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> Yes, some people are speaking up loudly on both sides of this
> >>> issue,
> >>> > > >>>> but
> >>> > > >>>> what does the actual body of delegates think NOW?  That is the
> >>> truly
> >>> > > >>>> relevant question, and if it is to go forward with the second
> >>> > sitting
> >>> > > >>>> in
> >>> > > >>>> Orlando, so be it.  However, if that were to occur without
> remote
> >>> > > >>>> access, so that delegates can participate in the convention
> from
> >>> > > >>>> wherever they are, that would have very harmful ramifications
> for
> >>> > the
> >>> > > >>>> LP.
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> I do think a poll of the delegates should be taken again ASAP
> to
> >>> > > >>>> ascertain across all delegations #1) what are their current
> >>> > > attendance
> >>> > > >>>> plans?, and #2) do they want the second sitting to occur July
> >>> 9-12?
> >>> > > I
> >>> > > >>>> think #1 is far more important than #2 in forming a decision.
> >>> After
> >>> > > >>>> all, what is going to happen if only one-seventh of the
> >>> credentialed
> >>> > > >>>> delegates show?
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> I think all of us greatly respect the convention knowledge and
> >>> very
> >>> > > >>>> hard
> >>> > > >>>> work of the COC for both Austin and Orlando, and I would very
> >>> much
> >>> > > >>>> regret little to nothing ultimately coming of it in 2020.
> But, I
> >>> > > >>>> think
> >>> > > >>>> there is still time, for the overall good of the Libertarian
> >>> Party,
> >>> > > to
> >>> > > >>>> get a good handle on what all of the delegates are thinking
> right
> >>> > > now,
> >>> > > >>>> and that could be effected very quickly.
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> Bill Redpath
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>> On 2020-06-30 23:09, john.phillips--- via Lnc-business wrote:
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > > >>>>> You remember I already did that ;)
> >>> > > >>>>>
> >>> > > >>>>> Teasing aside, I 100% support this and wholeheartedly sign
> on.
> >>> > > Thank you
> >>> > > >>>>>
> >>> > > >>>>> John Phillips
> >>> > > >>>>> Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
> >>> > > >>>>> Cell 217-412-5973
> >>> > > >>>>>
> >>> > > >>>>> On Jun 30, 2020 11:02 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> >>> > > >>>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>> > > >>>>>
> >>> > > >>>>>> I call upon my fellow LNC members to promise to support and
> >>> work
> >>> > > for
> >>> > > >>>> remote
> >>> > > >>>>>> participation if the in person convention goes forward.
> >>> > > >>>>>>
> >>> > > >>>>>> I do so pledge.
> >>> > > >>>>>>
> >>> > > >>>>>> *  In Liberty,*
> >>> > > >>>>>> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as
> Asperger's
> >>> > > Syndrome
> >>> > > >>>>>> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect
> inter-personal
> >>> > > >>>>>> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.
> >>> If
> >>> > > anyone
> >>> > > >>>>>> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some
> other
> >>> > > social
> >>> > > >>>> faux
> >>> > > >>>>>> pas) in an actual email, please contact me privately and
> let me
> >>> > > know.  *
> >>> > > >>>>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Links:
> >>> > > ------
> >>> > > [1] http://www.lp.org/join
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >> --
> >>
> >> *In Liberty,*
> >>
> >> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
> >> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> >> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If
> >> anyone
> >> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
> >> faux
> >> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
> >>
> >> --
> >
> > *In Liberty,*
> >
> > * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
> > (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
> > faux
> > pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
>
-- 

*In Liberty,*

* Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
(part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social faux
pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *