<div dir='auto'>For what it's worth I've had a few people tell me they have not received the poll. Did we not send it to alternates?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jul 1, 2020 3:55 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:<br type="attribution" /><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Just passing along.
<br>
<br>
I’m tapping out until there is a meeting.
<br>
<br>
I’m out of town all weekend and unavailable unless at a very odd hour.
<br>
<br>
None of this is about freedom any more. It’s fear, lack of constancy to
<br>
make a decision and stick with it, and political games.
<br>
<br>
If this committee makes the (imho) unconscionable and cowardly (again my
<br>
opinion) to cancel, I’ll do my duty to make sure whatever we do to replace
<br>
is a success.
<br>
<br>
I will vote NO. I would have considered a different vote if a non poison
<br>
pill poll went out yesterday. It didn’t.
<br>
<br>
A yes vote betrays and robs our delegates. Trust once lost is often never
<br>
regained.
<br>
<br>
See you all at any duly called meeting. I’m done.
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:41 PM Tim Hagan via Lnc-business <
<br>
lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
<br>
<br>
> So they didn't read the part in orange just above the questions, which
<br>
> states it's in Orlando.
<br>
>
<br>
> ---
<br>
> Tim Hagan
<br>
> Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee
<br>
>
<br>
> On 2020-07-01 12:32, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
<br>
> > Just told by a delegate that they thought it meant Orange County
<br>
> > California
<br>
> > and voted no.
<br>
> >
<br>
> > That’s what you get when you rush out a poll!
<br>
> >
<br>
> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:26 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
<br>
> > <caryn.ann.harlos@lp.org>
<br>
> > wrote:
<br>
> >
<br>
> >> It was a simplistic poison pill poll.
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >> Do you want to go from a nice hotel to a county building with no
<br>
> >> further
<br>
> >> details.
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >> Way to salt the soup. So tired of these bullsh*t political games.
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:21 PM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
<br>
> >> lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >>> It would be silly to ask the delegates a question about whether they
<br>
> >>> approve of the move from Shingle Creek to Rosen Centre, as it is only
<br>
> >>> one
<br>
> >>> dimension of a multi-dimensional decision. They don't have the
<br>
> >>> information
<br>
> >>> to know whether it's an apples-to-apples deal, what the financial
<br>
> >>> implications are for the party if we don't accept it. They'll likely
<br>
> >>> say
<br>
> >>> no because Shingle Creek is a nicer place, and why wouldn't they
<br>
> >>> prefer a
<br>
> >>> nicer place? That's all they'll consider if we asked such a
<br>
> >>> question.
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>> It's a lovely thought that we can just recover damages from Rosen,
<br>
> >>> but in
<br>
> >>> reality we could easily be out-of-pocket as much in litigation costs
<br>
> >>> as
<br>
> >>> we'd recover in damages, and it could take a couple of years to do
<br>
> >>> that.
<br>
> >>> Even if we also recovered litigation costs, we'd be out the cash in
<br>
> >>> the
<br>
> >>> meantime, and we don't really have cash to spare.
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>> The COC has little choice but to proceed with the assumption that
<br>
> >>> we're
<br>
> >>> moving ahead with Orlando. The LNC has not cancelled. The hotel is
<br>
> >>> offering us an alternative at a facility we have previously found to
<br>
> >>> be
<br>
> >>> acceptable (though we didn't use the OCCC in 2016). Some delegate
<br>
> >>> room
<br>
> >>> reservations start in 2 days. Other delegates are on the verge of
<br>
> >>> starting
<br>
> >>> to drive or take trains to Orlando. We are having to incur some
<br>
> >>> costs
<br>
> >>> this
<br>
> >>> week, else we lose the opportunity to have those things happen at all
<br>
> >>> when
<br>
> >>> the convention proceeds.
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>> It is hard to pin down the financial result if the event were to be
<br>
> >>> cancelled. Some expenditures can't be recovered unless the hotel is
<br>
> >>> made
<br>
> >>> to repay us for them. We don't know how many delegates would ask for
<br>
> >>> refunds. Because of the terms of our credit card processing
<br>
> >>> contract, we
<br>
> >>> would eat the credit card fees on those refunds. We don't have the
<br>
> >>> cash
<br>
> >>> to
<br>
> >>> refund all the funds collected because even after I pointed out that
<br>
> >>> the
<br>
> >>> convention funds were being raided for deficit spending in party
<br>
> >>> operations, the LNC would not act quickly to stop the problem from
<br>
> >>> getting
<br>
> >>> worse...and it did get worse before the LNC finally acted. We would
<br>
> >>> lose
<br>
> >>> the opportunity for general party fundraising which is often a large
<br>
> >>> boost
<br>
> >>> to our ballot access efforts in presidential years. It's all a giant
<br>
> >>> question mark, but it leans toward negative impact. It is the duty
<br>
> >>> of LNC
<br>
> >>> members to weigh all of these factors and many more (like impact on
<br>
> >>> delegates with sunk costs) and not just make a knee-jerk reaction to
<br>
> >>> a
<br>
> >>> single factor.
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>> Managing the party assets is one of our key duties. The LNC is not
<br>
> >>> in
<br>
> >>> great financial shape. The best financial result for us is to either
<br>
> >>> have
<br>
> >>> them honor the Shingle Creek deal, or accept an alternative with
<br>
> >>> Rosen
<br>
> >>> Centre / OCCC so long as we aren't responsible for costs we would not
<br>
> >>> have
<br>
> >>> incurred in the original deal. The COC has a bullet list from last
<br>
> >>> night's
<br>
> >>> meeting for what else they need to do for us, and I know that is
<br>
> >>> being
<br>
> >>> actively addressed today.
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>> -Alicia
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:58 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
<br>
> >>> lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >>> > I do think it is highly possible to recover those costs from Rosen.
<br>
> >>> > Nothing is a slam dunk in the legal word. I want to be clear - I
<br>
> think
<br>
> >>> > they dealt us dirty and that Mr. Rosen blew smoke up our rears and
<br>
> >>> broke a
<br>
> >>> > promise. I keep hearing we cannot cancel because we will taint that
<br>
> >>> > relationship. It is already tainted by his breaking his word. He
<br>
> put
<br>
> >>> us
<br>
> >>> > in this situation. That is a simple fact, and I do not forgive that.
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> > That does not excuse us however from fulfilling the vote of the
<br>
> >>> delegates,
<br>
> >>> > but have no doubts, I will want to pursue the fullest recovery from
<br>
> >>> Rosen
<br>
> >>> > if it comes to that.
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> > *In Liberty,*
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> > * Personal Note: I have what is commonly known as Asperger's
<br>
> Syndrome
<br>
> >>> > (part of the autism spectrum). This can affect inter-personal
<br>
> >>> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas. If
<br>
> anyone
<br>
> >>> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
<br>
> >>> faux
<br>
> >>> > pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 11:42 AM erin.adams--- via Lnc-business <
<br>
> >>> > lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> > > For US to pay *
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > Erin Adams Region 7 alt.
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > On Jul 1, 2020 12:41 PM, erin.adams@lp.org wrote:
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > I think they are obligated to pay US because they are in breech in
<br>
> an
<br>
> >>> > > amount sufficient for US to AVG and other incurred expenses
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > Erin Adams Region 7 alt.
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > On Jul 1, 2020 12:38 PM, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business <
<br>
> >>> > > lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > Do you think that Rosen is obligated to pay AVG if they are in
<br>
> breach?
<br>
> >>> > > I'd love to hear a legal opinion from Mr. Hall about what we could
<br>
> >>> > > recover from Rosen with or without litigation.
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > ---
<br>
> >>> > > Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
<br>
> >>> > > Libertarian National Committee
<br>
> >>> > > Convention Oversight Committee
<br>
> >>> > > 317-850-0726 Cell
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > On 2020-07-01 13:07, Daniel Fishman wrote:
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > > That just ain't so Sam -- unless we agree to accept their
<br>
> >>> alternative,
<br>
> >>> > > they are in breach. Our reason is we want to be at Shingle Creek
<br>
> which
<br>
> >>> > was
<br>
> >>> > > what they promised. And they aren't going to give it to us.
<br>
> >>> > > >
<br>
> >>> > > > I think a poll of the delegates is warranted. I'm adding Tim's
<br>
> >>> > > language. I welcome other suggestions.
<br>
> >>> > > >
<br>
> >>> > > > ---
<br>
> >>> > > > Daniel Fishman
<br>
> >>> > > > Executive Director
<br>
> >>> > > > The Libertarian Party
<br>
> >>> > > > Join Us [1]
<br>
> >>> > > >
<br>
> >>> > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:51 PM Sam Goldstein <
<br>
> sam.goldstein@lp.org
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>> > > wrote:
<br>
> >>> > > >
<br>
> >>> > > >> Perhaps you should include in that poll the LP will be in the
<br>
> hole
<br>
> >>> > > >> somewhere over $100k if we cancel at this late date just
<br>
> because we
<br>
> >>> > > want
<br>
> >>> > > >> to without a reason covered by the Force Majeure clause in the
<br>
> AVG
<br>
> >>> > > >> contract in addition to other costs.
<br>
> >>> > > >>
<br>
> >>> > > >> ---
<br>
> >>> > > >> Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
<br>
> >>> > > >> Libertarian National Committee
<br>
> >>> > > >> Convention Oversight Committee
<br>
> >>> > > >> 317-850-0726 Cell
<br>
> >>> > > >>
<br>
> >>> > > >> On 2020-07-01 12:39, Daniel Fishman via Lnc-business wrote:
<br>
> >>> > > >>> Suggested poll to the delegates:
<br>
> >>> > > >>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>> 1 - Are you currently planning to attend the second sitting
<br>
> >>> > in-person?
<br>
> >>> > > >>> 2 -
<br>
> >>> > > >>> Do you support: - Relocating the second sitting to the Orange
<br>
> >>> County
<br>
> >>> > > >>> Convention Center - Cancellation of the in-person second
<br>
> sitting
<br>
> >>> and
<br>
> >>> > > >>> resuming business online
<br>
> >>> > > >>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>> ---
<br>
> >>> > > >>> Daniel Fishman
<br>
> >>> > > >>> Executive Director
<br>
> >>> > > >>> The Libertarian Party
<br>
> >>> > > >>> Join Us <http://www.lp.org/join>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:17 PM William Redpath via
<br>
> Lnc-business <
<br>
> >>> > > >>> lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
<br>
> >>> > > >>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> I just spoke with LPIL Chair and Delegation Chair Steve Suess.
<br>
> >>> The
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> LPIL
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> had a full slate of 37 delegates for the national
<br>
> convention. Of
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> those,
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> he says, now only 5 are going to Orlando (I know, probably not
<br>
> >>> all
<br>
> >>> > 37
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> would have gone to Austin, but still...). And, we've got a
<br>
> week
<br>
> >>> to
<br>
> >>> > > go
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> for possible further attrition.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> I don't know the economics of this convention well enough to
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> prognosticate what the LNC should do to maximize its gain or
<br>
> >>> > minimize
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> its loss from this convention, but could it be that
<br>
> cancellation
<br>
> >>> is
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> the
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> least bad financial option at this point? I don't know. I
<br>
> will
<br>
> >>> > > leave
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> it to Bette Rose, et al. to number crunch that.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> A fair amount has been made on this list about potential
<br>
> delegate
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> personal financial losses. As sportscaster Warner Wolf used
<br>
> to
<br>
> >>> say,
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> "Let's go to the videotape!"
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> Delegates can ask for their convention package payment back
<br>
> (many
<br>
> >>> > > will
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> not, and fewer will, if we ask nicely). They can cancel the
<br>
> >>> hotel
<br>
> >>> > at
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> no
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> penalty at this time. They may not get a refund from their
<br>
> >>> airline
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> ticket but will almost certainly get full credit on a future
<br>
> >>> ticket
<br>
> >>> > > to
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> be used over the next year or two. I think very few people
<br>
> would
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> suffer
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> economic loss, and there might be a net economic gain if the
<br>
> >>> > employed
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> save some vacation days.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> Don't necessarily look to hotel reservations to judge
<br>
> >>> attendance. I
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> surmise that many reservations have not been cancelled yet.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> The "Will of the Delegates" did vote for a second sitting in
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> Orlando--over a tenth of a year ago. A lot has happened since
<br>
> >>> then
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> that
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> could not have been foreseen.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> Yes, some people are speaking up loudly on both sides of this
<br>
> >>> issue,
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> but
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> what does the actual body of delegates think NOW? That is the
<br>
> >>> truly
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> relevant question, and if it is to go forward with the second
<br>
> >>> > sitting
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> in
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> Orlando, so be it. However, if that were to occur without
<br>
> remote
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> access, so that delegates can participate in the convention
<br>
> from
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> wherever they are, that would have very harmful ramifications
<br>
> for
<br>
> >>> > the
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> LP.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> I do think a poll of the delegates should be taken again ASAP
<br>
> to
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> ascertain across all delegations #1) what are their current
<br>
> >>> > > attendance
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> plans?, and #2) do they want the second sitting to occur July
<br>
> >>> 9-12?
<br>
> >>> > > I
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> think #1 is far more important than #2 in forming a decision.
<br>
> >>> After
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> all, what is going to happen if only one-seventh of the
<br>
> >>> credentialed
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> delegates show?
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> I think all of us greatly respect the convention knowledge and
<br>
> >>> very
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> hard
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> work of the COC for both Austin and Orlando, and I would very
<br>
> >>> much
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> regret little to nothing ultimately coming of it in 2020.
<br>
> But, I
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> think
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> there is still time, for the overall good of the Libertarian
<br>
> >>> Party,
<br>
> >>> > > to
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> get a good handle on what all of the delegates are thinking
<br>
> right
<br>
> >>> > > now,
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> and that could be effected very quickly.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> Bill Redpath
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> On 2020-06-30 23:09, john.phillips--- via Lnc-business wrote:
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>> You remember I already did that ;)
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>> Teasing aside, I 100% support this and wholeheartedly sign
<br>
> on.
<br>
> >>> > > Thank you
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>> John Phillips
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>> Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>> Cell 217-412-5973
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>> On Jun 30, 2020 11:02 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> lnc-business@hq.lp.org> wrote:
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> I call upon my fellow LNC members to promise to support and
<br>
> >>> work
<br>
> >>> > > for
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> remote
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> participation if the in person convention goes forward.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> I do so pledge.
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>>
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> * In Liberty,*
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> * Personal Note: I have what is commonly known as
<br>
> Asperger's
<br>
> >>> > > Syndrome
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> (part of the autism spectrum). This can affect
<br>
> inter-personal
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.
<br>
> >>> If
<br>
> >>> > > anyone
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some
<br>
> other
<br>
> >>> > > social
<br>
> >>> > > >>>> faux
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>>> pas) in an actual email, please contact me privately and
<br>
> let me
<br>
> >>> > > know. *
<br>
> >>> > > >>>>
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > > Links:
<br>
> >>> > > ------
<br>
> >>> > > [1] http://www.lp.org/join
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> > >
<br>
> >>> >
<br>
> >>>
<br>
> >> --
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >> *In Liberty,*
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >> * Personal Note: I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
<br>
> >> (part of the autism spectrum). This can affect inter-personal
<br>
> >> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas. If
<br>
> >> anyone
<br>
> >> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
<br>
> >> faux
<br>
> >> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
<br>
> >>
<br>
> >> --
<br>
> >
<br>
> > *In Liberty,*
<br>
> >
<br>
> > * Personal Note: I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
<br>
> > (part of the autism spectrum). This can affect inter-personal
<br>
> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas. If anyone
<br>
> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
<br>
> > faux
<br>
> > pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
<br>
>
<br>
--
<br>
<br>
*In Liberty,*
<br>
<br>
* Personal Note: I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
<br>
(part of the autism spectrum). This can affect inter-personal
<br>
communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas. If anyone
<br>
found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social faux
<br>
pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
<br>
</p>
</blockquote></div><br></div>