[Lnc-business] Proposed Policy Manual addition regarding electronic meetings
Joshua Katz
joshua.katz at lp.org
Thu Sep 18 14:32:08 EDT 2014
This is why I have trouble with arguments from intent. You had that
intent; my guess is most of the bylaws committee likely had a similar
intent, although probably not all since it wasn't written in. As a
delegate, I voted for this change with a different intent. I likely would
have opposed it if it had been written to require the LNC to set the rules
for committees, or at least wanted to see it voted down for the purpose of
amendment. My guess is most delegates didn't think much about whether the
LNC would, in fact, set those rules at all, and of those who did, some had
your intent, some had mine. What can be done with this information? I'd
say nothing - now that the words are there, the question of whether or not
the LNC ought to set those rules is the question to be debated. You think
the LNC should, I think it shouldn't. What are my reasons for thinking so?
They're pretty general, really - I like more empowered committees, and
believe committees function best when they have the ability, if needed, to
set their own rules - although I fully support providing committees with
defaults. Maybe it's not the strongest argument in the world, but that's
my opinion.
Joshua Katz
Joshua A. Katz
Region 8 (Region of Badassdom) Alternate
Libertarian National Committee
Chair, Libertarian Party of Connecticut
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Daniel Wiener <wiener at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Here's Revision 3 of my e-conference Policy Manual proposal. I've
> reworded and simplified some sections. I've also added exemptions for the
> Executive Committee and other specific committees which require
> confidentiality and/or are time sensitive. The intent of the new Bylaw,
> which I promoted in the Bylaws Committee, is to provide a foundational set
> of procedures for videoconferences and teleconferences which committees
> should adhere to as minimum standards. I support that objective. Even if
> the Bylaw doesn't *require* that we take action, I believe we ought to do
> so.
>
> Dan Wiener
>
> Add a new *Section 1.02(7) Electronic Meetings:*
>
>
>
> *Pursuant to Article 13 of the LP Bylaws, the LNC and all committees of
> the national party except as noted shall follow these rules in order to
> conduct meetings via videoconference or teleconference (“e-conference”).
> These rules do not apply to the LNC Executive Committee, Advertising &
> Publication Review Committee, Audit Committee, Awards Committee, Employment
> Policy and Compensation Committee, or subcommittees and informal committee
> working groups.*
>
>
>
> - *For videoconferences, it is the responsibility of committee members
> to provide their own compatible equipment. A committee member must be
> allowed the option to participate by teleconference only. To the extent
> that it is technically and financially practical, meetings shall be
> available for listening and/or viewing. Five minutes shall be made
> available for public comments at the beginning of the meeting, but
> non-committee members must first identify themselves and their phone
> numbers to the person acting as secretary. By a majority vote a committee
> may allow a non-committee member to participate in the meeting for specific
> purposes.*
>
>
>
> - *Either the committee chair or one-third of the committee members
> may call for an e-conference. Notice for such a meeting, along with the
> agenda, shall be provided to all committee members by email, and shall also
> be reposted on the LNC-Business list, a minimum of five days ahead of
> time. No item of business may be placed on or added to the agenda unless
> all committee members have access to the same supporting documentation.*
>
>
>
> - *Participants must try to eliminate background noise, including
> radio, television, traffic, appliances, and side conversations, as well as
> call waiting for those who have it. A participants shall not place a
> telephone on hold if the system has music or messages playing while in that
> mode. Failure to comply with any of the above, or to otherwise mute the
> sound when a participant isn’t talking, shall be grounds for dropping the
> participant from the e-conference, but that participant shall be allowed to
> reconnect if the problem is corrected.*
>
>
>
> - *Each committee member shall be given an opportunity to speak at
> least once on each agenda item, but a member may defer until others have
> had an opportunity to speak. The committee chair may choose the order to
> call on members. The default time limit for each speaker shall be three
> minutes, but a different limit, applicable equally to all speakers, may be
> specified either in the agenda material prior to the meeting or by a
> majority of the committee. An individual speaker’s time may be extended by
> unanimous consent. Seconding a motion and similar parliamentary matters
> shall not require recognition, and shall not deprive a member of the
> opportunity to speak substantively on an agenda item. *
>
>
>
> - *The chair may choose a voting method which will clearly and
> efficiently determine the outcome. In cases where a roll call vote is
> required, it shall be sufficient if the voting method can accurately
> identify how each committee member voted and allow that information to be
> recorded.*
>
>
>
> - *Barring technical difficulties and excepting Executive Sessions,
> e-conferences shall be recorded. All individuals attending an e-conference
> must agree to be so recorded, and also agree not to record and not to
> divulge the contents of Executive Sessions unless the committee allows it
> by unanimous consent. Individuals who do not agree to these conditions
> shall be excluded from the e-conference.*
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Joshua Katz <joshua.katz at lp.org> wrote:
>
>> Dan:
>> 1. Thanks for incorporating many of my comments into your revised motion.
>> 2. Regarding the bylaw, I wish I could understand better where you're
>> coming from.
>> Boards and committees may conduct business by teleconference or
>> videoconference. The National
>> Committee shall have power to adopt special rules of order and standing
>> rules to facilitate the conduct of
>> business by teleconference or videoconference.
>> I struggle to see this as requiring the LNC to make rules for other
>> committees. Certainly it allows the LNC to do so. Let me ask it this way
>> - suppose your motion failed, and we did nothing at all about electronic
>> meetings. It is my opinion, based on this bylaw, that boards and
>> committees would be allowed to conduct business by teleconference or
>> videoconference, and that the LNC would simply not have exercised the power
>> given to adopt rules. Do you disagree with this claim?
>> You mentioned intent, and I find it hard to work with intent arguments,
>> which is why I'm trying to focus on the words. My opinion, generally, is
>> that the words should be our guide. I find intent troubling - whose
>> intent? How do you know? If they intended something different from what
>> the words say, why didn't they write that?
>> 3. I'm unclear on "limited basis." Maybe this should be more clear? I
>> think the intent, which I agree with, is to limit non-members to speaking,
>> but I would think, based on what it says, that we need to vote on exactly
>> what limits will exist. I'm thinking maybe it should just say that
>> non-members may speak with a majority vote.
>> 4. I maintain that it's worth saying that all of our rules of order
>> apply unless contradicted in these rules.
>>
>> Joshua Katz
>>
>> Joshua A. Katz
>>
>> Region 8 (Region of Badassdom) Alternate
>> Libertarian National Committee
>>
>> Chair, Libertarian Party of Connecticut
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 10:07 PM, Daniel Wiener <wiener at alum.mit.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I like some (but not all) of the suggested changes I’ve heard, and hence
>>> have a new draft motion (see below). Deletions and additions are shown by
>>> strike-throughs and underscores. I’ve also interspersed my comments
>>> within the text in *[square brackets]*; those comments are NOT part of
>>> the proposal. I’ll have a cleaned-up version available for the meeting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan Wiener
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Pursuant to Article 13 of the LP Bylaws, the LNC and all committees of
>>> the national party may conduct meetings via videoconference or
>>> teleconference (“e-conference”) according to the following rules: **[I
>>> don’t think that other committees should be allowed to adopt alternate
>>> rules which contradict these rules. That violates the intention of the new
>>> Bylaw which the national convention just adopted.]*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - *For videoconferences, it is the responsibility of committee
>>> members to provide their own compatible equipment. In the temporary
>>> absence of the necessary equipment, or in the case of technical
>>> difficulties, A committee member must be allowed the option to participate
>>> by teleconference only. **[I concede that members should not be
>>> required to obtain videoconferencing equipment, but may participate by
>>> teleconference only.]** To the extent that it is technically and
>>> financially practical **feasible, meetings shall be open to all
>>> Libertarian Party sustaining members people to listen in on and view. **[If
>>> we’re going to archive and post the recordings anyway, we might as well
>>> stream them in real time. However, bandwidth considerations (including
>>> cost) might limit that, especially for video.] **Five minutes shall
>>> be made available for public comments at the beginning of the meeting and
>>> also at the end of the meeting, but non-committee** but those
>>> members must first identify themselves and their phone numbers to the
>>> person acting as secretary, and their status must be verified prior to the
>>> meeting. **[The secretary shouldn’t have to deal with this added
>>> hassle while the meeting is in progress. The ID information is required so
>>> that a non-member’s phone can be blocked out if necessary to avoid meeting
>>> disruptions and during Executive Sessions.]** By a majority vote a
>>> committee may allow a non-committee member to participate in the meeting on
>>> a limited basis.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - *Either the committee chair or one-third of the committee members
>>> may call for an e-conference. A minimum of seven (7) days Notice for such
>>> a meeting, along with the agenda, shall be provided to all committee
>>> members by email, and shall also be reposted on the LNC-Business list, a
>>> minimum of seven days ahead of time. **[I’ve rearranged the wording
>>> of the last sentence for clarity.]** No item of business may be
>>> placed on or added to the agenda unless all committee members have access
>>> to the same supporting documentation.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - *Participants must try to eliminate background noise, including
>>> radio, television, traffic, appliances, and side conversations, as well as
>>> call waiting for those who have it. A participants shall not place a
>>> telephone on hold if the system has music or messages playing while in that
>>> mode. **Failure to do comply with any of the above, or to otherwise
>>> mute the sound when a participant isn’t talking, shall be grounds for
>>> dropping the participant from the e-conference, but that participant shall
>>> be allowed to reconnect if the problem is corrected.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - *Each committee member shall be given an opportunity to speak at
>>> least once on each agenda item, but a member may defer until others have
>>> had an opportunity to speak. If the technical means are available, members
>>> may signal to the committee chair their desire to speak. The committee
>>> chair may choose the order to call on members. The default time limit for
>>> each speaker shall be three minutes, but a different limit, applicable
>>> equally to all speakers, may be specified either in the agenda material
>>> prior to the meeting or by a majority of the committee. An individual
>>> speaker’s time may be extended by unanimous consent. Seconding a motion
>>> and similar parliamentary matters shall not require recognition, and shall
>>> not deprive a member of the opportunity to speak substantively on an agenda
>>> item. *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - *The chair may choose a voting method which will clearly and
>>> efficiently determine the outcome. In cases where a roll call vote is
>>> required, it shall be sufficient if the voting method can accurately
>>> identify how each committee member voted and allow that information to be
>>> recorded.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - *A person (normally the Party Secretary in the case of an LNC or
>>> Executive Committee meeting) shall be appointed to perform the secretarial
>>> function who is not also the person chairing the meeting.* *[I
>>> agree that this bullet point is sufficiently covered by RONR and can
>>> therefore be deleted.]*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - *Barring technical difficulties and excepting Executive Sessions,
>>> e-conferences shall be recorded. The audio (and, if practical, the video)
>>> shall be archived and linked to on the LP website. All individuals
>>> attending an e-conference must agree to be so **recorded, **[this is
>>> important since many state laws require two-party consent for recording
>>> telephone calls]** and also agree not to record and not to divulge
>>> the contents of Executive Sessions unless the committee allows it by
>>> unanimous consent. Individuals who do not agree to these conditions shall
>>> be excluded from the e-conference.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 10:08 AM, Joshua Katz <
>>> planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is my idea for a substitute, for your consideration (should you
>>>> choose to read it.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Pursuant to Article 13 of the LP Bylaws, the LNC** may
>>>> conduct meetings via videoconference or teleconference (“e-conference”)
>>>> according to the following rules, and all committees of the national party
>>>> may conduct meetings via videoconference or teleconference according to the
>>>> following rules, or to alternative rules adopted by the particular
>>>> committee:*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - *For videoconferences, it is the responsibility of committee
>>>> member to provide their own compatible equipment. In the absence of the
>>>> necessary equipment, or in the case of technical difficulties, a committee
>>>> member must be allowed to participate by teleconference. To the extent
>>>> that it is technically feasible, meetings shall be open to all people to
>>>> listen in on and view. Any member of the Party may speak during designated
>>>> times for public comment, or may request to provide comment at other times,
>>>> but those members must first identify themselves and their phone numbers to
>>>> the person acting as secretary, and their status must be verified prior to
>>>> the meeting. Such requests shall require a majority vote for approval.
>>>> Repeated requests after negative votes will be deemed dilatory by the
>>>> presiding officer. Five minutes at the start of the meeting, and five
>>>> minutes at the conclusion of each meeting, shall be designated for public
>>>> comment.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - *Either the committee chair or one-third of the committee members
>>>> may call for an e-conference. A minimum of seven (7) days prior to such a
>>>> meeting, notice, including the agenda, shall be provided to all committee
>>>> members by email, and shall also be reposted on the LNC-Business list, also
>>>> a minimum of 7 days prior to such a meeting. No item of business may be
>>>> placed on or added to the agenda unless all committee members have access
>>>> to the same supporting documentation. No commitments may be made on any
>>>> items not included in the agenda included with the notice.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - *Participants must try to eliminate background noise, including
>>>> radio, television, traffic, appliances, and side conversations, as well as
>>>> call waiting for those who have it. A participants shall not place a
>>>> telephone on hold if the system has music or messages playing while in that
>>>> mode. Failure to do any of the above, or to otherwise mute the sound when
>>>> a participant isn’t talking, shall be grounds for dropping the participant
>>>> from the e-conference. If a participant is dropped, the presiding officer
>>>> shall inform the body of the action taken and the reasons as soon as
>>>> possible. Should the participant attempt to reconnect, they will be
>>>> permitted to do so, assuming the problem has been corrected.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - *Each participant shall have the opportunity to speak twice, for
>>>> three minutes at each opportunity, on each motion. A different limit on
>>>> debate, applicable equally to all participants, may be specified in the
>>>> agenda. Except where contradicted by applicable statute, the bylaws, or
>>>> these rules, all rules of order as followed at meetings of the committee
>>>> (including special rules of order and rules in the parliamentary authority
>>>> adopted by the committee,) shall be followed. Only main motions (original
>>>> or incidental) shall require recognition by the chair. Roll call votes,
>>>> when required by applicable rules of order, shall be held either by vocal
>>>> roll call, or by a means chosen by the chair that adequately provides for
>>>> the recording of each individual's vote.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - *Barring technical difficulties and excepting Executive Sessions,
>>>> e-conferences shall be recorded. The audio (and, if practical, the video)
>>>> shall be archived and linked to on the LP website. All individuals
>>>> attending an e-conference must agree to be so recorded, and also agree not
>>>> to record and not to divulge the contents of Executive Sessions unless the
>>>> committee allows it by unanimous consent. Individuals who do not agree to
>>>> these conditions shall be excluded from the e-conference.*
>>>>
>>>> Joshua Katz
>>>>
>>>> Joshua A. Katz
>>>> Westbrook CT Planning Commission (L in R seat)
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:51 PM, Joshua Katz <
>>>> planning4liberty at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree, and Dr. Lieberman raises a good point. When we hold virtual
>>>>> meetings for the state committee in CT, I require all motions be given to
>>>>> the secretary in writing - by email if a member has called in, or by text
>>>>> if they are on the computer. A document sharing program would also work.
>>>>> It might be a good idea to put that rule in place directly - all motions
>>>>> are to be delivered to the secretary in writing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd point out that nothing in the bylaw change, or these rules,
>>>>> requires us to hold distance meetings. I do probably see more value in
>>>>> them than Dr. Lieberman does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joshua Katz
>>>>>
>>>>> Joshua A. Katz
>>>>> Westbrook CT Planning Commission (L in R seat)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 3:47 PM, Scott L. <scott73 at earthlink.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “6. I am not sure what to make of "temporary absence." Suppose a
>>>>>> member of the committee doesn't buy, and has no plan to buy, a webcam, and
>>>>>> wishes to participate by telephone. Certainly such an absence of webcam is
>>>>>> not temporary - but it also can't rightly be called permanent, as it is
>>>>>> certainly a situation that may well be remedied - in fact, it can be
>>>>>> remedied without intent if they purchase a Chromebook, new laptop, etc.
>>>>>> Why not just say that it's alright to participate by phone? (In fact, I
>>>>>> question the need to hold any video conference meetings, above and beyond
>>>>>> phone meetings. Why do you need to see my living room, and my pajamas?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joshua Katz”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not important for LNC Reps and our members to see our faces
>>>>>> frown at stupidly worded motions, or smile when our side prevails in a
>>>>>> vote. OTOH, having correctly working document sharing during a
>>>>>> videoconference meeting would be helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Using document sharing, LNC members could see written versions of the
>>>>>> pending motions, and see any written graphs or charts that staff or members
>>>>>> feel we need to see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please do not take my suggestions as an endorsement of
>>>>>> videoconference meetings. I consider my suggestions to be a form of harm
>>>>>> reduction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott Lieberman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Lnc-business mailing list
>>>>>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>>>>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Lnc-business mailing list
>>>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *"In general, we look for a new law by the following process. First, we
>>> guess it (audience laughter), no, don’t laugh, that’s the truth. Then we
>>> compute the consequences of the guess, to see what, if this is right, if
>>> this law we guess is right, to see what it would imply and then we compare
>>> the computation results to nature or we say compare to experiment or
>>> experience, compare it directly with observations to see if it works. If it
>>> disagrees with experiment, it’s WRONG. In that simple statement is the key
>>> to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it
>>> doesn’t matter how smart you are, who made the guess, or what his name is.
>>> If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.”*
>>> -- Richard Feynman
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lnc-business mailing list
>>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lnc-business mailing list
>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *"In general, we look for a new law by the following process. First, we
> guess it (audience laughter), no, don’t laugh, that’s the truth. Then we
> compute the consequences of the guess, to see what, if this is right, if
> this law we guess is right, to see what it would imply and then we compare
> the computation results to nature or we say compare to experiment or
> experience, compare it directly with observations to see if it works. If it
> disagrees with experiment, it’s WRONG. In that simple statement is the key
> to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it
> doesn’t matter how smart you are, who made the guess, or what his name is.
> If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.”*
> -- Richard Feynman
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lnc-business mailing list
> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org
>
>
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