[Lnc-business] Satanic Post - LNC Input Requested

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

It is not often I disagree with David, but it happens, and it happened
here- but only partially.  (this goes beyond the "satanic post" - I
disagreed with that post for many reasons I laid out over and over and
after Nick said okay delete it, I was the one who actually hit the delete
button)

*First, Alicia raises great points about using other people's religious
texts.  *Words mean different things in different religions, and most
people don't like political parties purposefully trying to use their texts
basically to say "See, God is a libertarian." (this is putting aside the
atheist ones).  She worded that perfectly.

I like the Free to Believe concept and I think it IS actually very HIGH on
the list of people's concerns. It can be done without trying to appropriate
the religious texts (and there was a definite mixed message issue in mixing
irreligion with religion and timing, and well all the issues I already very
publicly had with that post) by just showing *PEOPLE* and that these *PEOPLE
*are welcome and do not have to abandon their traditions to be Libertarians
or maybe having PEOPLE and not the PARTY giving their view on how they can
be X faith or No Faith and be a Libertarian.

Where I disagree is that now we start saying we only care about the popular
issues (*or appear to be saying that)*.  MOST PEOPLE don't care about
legalizing prostitution or *all *drugs. Trump has shown MOST PEOPLE do not
care about free movement of people and really do not care to speak up for
Muslims.  I can name a lot of things that many people don't care about that
we have cared about and* the biggest complaint from those who have
supported us for years is that we have stopped dong that consistently*.
That all that matters is the almighty polls and the fickle vote, principles
be damned.  I also hear that well, those people will just have to accept
that now we have to go after others.  I keep hearing we have to stop
playing to libertarians - but what those libertarians hear is that they
don't matter anymore.  And I hear from many (not here) that the Party
really doesn't care - that base is expendable (and the litany of insults
comes.... you don't want to grow, you are just a debate club, you are
politically autistic, etc.)   And it makes me wonder how we think they
became libertarians to begin with.  Very few of us are second generation.
We go after others by giving them libertarianism.  If our ideas are so
loathsome and wrong that they can't be said, we are all wasting our time
and are terrible people.  I obviously don't believe that.

*In the 1970s, I can guarantee you Joe America did not care about gay
rights.  But we did.  *The Libertarian Party today seems to have forgotten
there is a whole other frontier we should and could push on. The rights of
people who believe that a "couple" isn't the only relational arrangement
and they suffer.... but that is a tangent but I think a good symptom of how
we are content to play it safe.  Because we worry that this won't sell in
Apple Pie USA.  If that is our worry, we picked the wrong horse to back -
and I think Americans ARE hungry for real freedom.

And when we say we are going to care about X group because they are X in
the number of issues etc we are telling some other Y group, who also has
liberty issues, that we are embarrassed by their issues and well, we
polled, and not that many people care about your subjugation, so too bad,
so sad.  I believe we need to not only be different in our views but in our
approaches and we are buying old party and old world approaches.... this
isn't saying we have great approaches now  but it is saying we need to
think more about how to be like the early lean and hungry Apple who broke
all molds and not a mini-me of traditionalism and old party thinking.  One
thing has become my mantra  over the past six months: * I will say the word
abolish.*  I think there are multitudes that are just waiting to hear
people boldly saying what they actually believe.  With respect.  With
consideration.  With nobility.  But with frank honesty, treating them as
mature adults who can handle the truth. We are not the priests and
priestesses of secret dangerous knowledge that the laity cannot handle so
we must mediate it to them in diluted form.

We have never been that Party, and it isn't the Party the core base
believes we are.  I can tell you, I'm not THAT Libertarian that says, well,
your freedom isn't on the top list of Americans, (it didn't poll so well in
Main Street USA) so I am not going to talk about it.  It won't earn me
popularity, don't you see?   I'm THAT Libertarian that will step on the
third rails of politics IF it means defending the rights of the individual
and challenging the cult of the omnipotent state.  Trump broke all current
molds - people want something different.  We need to be that something
different that isn't something tyrannical and awful, but noble, beautiful,
bold, and courageous freedom.

Turning from that, this shows then a false issue.  *We can do this great
targeting, but we must never be unwilling to take the risks and be the
voice for the unpopular opinions too.*  We can do both, but I keeping
hearing about playing it safe and becoming bean counters.  I will not go
along with that, I will continue to say we are the voice for the unpopular
as well as the popular, just like we were for gay folks in the 70s.  As the
meme says, "Why Choose Just One?"

And though I am NOT claiming this is a Libertarian verse, I am a Christian,
and it applies by analogy.  *"When salt loses its saltiness it is not
longer fit for anything but to thrown into the trash heap."*

Half of what I hear out of Libertarian talking heads (again this is general
- not directed to any of my fellows) is that we should lose our saltiness.
It is unbalanced.  We must do this targeted sort of thing.  We must talk to
the mothers of sons who are rotting in jail for using, selling, or
possessing a plant. We grieve with them. We must denounce the brutal
bombings overseas and those parents who have the horror of the maiming and
killing of their loves ones.  We shudder in horror with them.  *But we must
also speak to those who may not have the numbers to ever get political
attention or wooing because their liberty matters too.  *

And the minute I hear anything about our "top priority"  but not the fact
that our Bylaws tell us what it is - *to implement and give voice to the
principles in the Statement of Principles*, I know we are using the wrong
starting point.  Our SoP does not say, "We, the members of the Libertarian
Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state on popular easy issues
and defend the rights of the individual that don't anger the majority and
who poll well because it is winning at all costs."

We are the vanguard.  We are the bleeding edge.  We are the ones that say
to the Overton Window- "Oh yeah?  How about pushing you a bit northward,
shall we?"

*I will not bean-count what rights are worth supporting * -  liberty is
also for the person doing the things many people don't like but are their
right to do.  *Speaking truth to power isn't playing it safe and letting
the polls tell us what issues we discuss.*

As far as that Policy Manual section (thank you Aaron), it is even slower
than what actually happened here.  The post went up, it was seen, numerous
people including myself contacted Nick immediately who has the authority to
pull it himself without needing a majority, and he made the decision to
pull.  If Nick had declined, the Policy Manual steps could have then
ensured that the LNC could veto that decision by informing the Secretary.
Going straight to the Chair took care of it quickly, though the PM
procedure gives a good means to veto any Chair inaction.  Some may say not
quick enough.  For me, I personally didn't see it until I was off work that
day.  It was quicker than trying to contact a majority of the LNC and
getting word to the Secretary.  But if the LNC ever had a Chair make a bad
decision or be unavailable, that is certainly a good failsafe.

-Caryn Ann

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM, David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
wrote:

> Alicia and Daniel, thank you for your thoughtful and detailed comments on
> our exploratory committee scope, subject matter and prerogatives.
>
>
>
> First a comment on the offending Satanic Temple meme that I finally viewed
> for the first time last night. Coupled with the second-hand information
> that the Satanic Temple uses their “belief system” as a satirical tax
> dodge, and ignoring for a moment the obvious Holy week timing faux pas, I
> am trying to figure out what is so philosophically offensive about the
> meme. Is it because it infers the belief of some Libertarians that we own
> our own bodies (property rights) as opposed to God owning our bodies? Help
> me understand in a non-hysterical, non-hand-wringing way from a logical
> factual perspective, where the philosophical beef is in this hubbub.
> Obviously, the religious belief systems of some, even if admittedly in this
> case a satirical tax dodge, may be offensive to a few. So What? Is the real
> problem not the philosophical dogma questions but our undeniable
> dysfunctional personal and institutional Libertarian Party messaging
> strategies?
>
>
>
> These religious dogma questions notwithstanding, I would agree with
> Daniel, Alicia and many other LNC members and Libertarians that the bigger
> issue is why the religious freedom meme series was there in the first place
> and for what purpose in light of our top priorities of creating a winning
> messaging strategy, getting Libertarians elected and putting the statists
> out of business. Religious freedom is obviously an important part of the
> Libertarianism philosophical foundation and a timely issue to core
> Libertarians who understand the importance despite our dysfunctional
> internal and external institutional messaging strategies. But how far down
> the list of priorities is the religious freedom issue to non-Libertarians
> that we want to connect with?
>
>
>
> First, the timely positive outcome of this hubbub is that we are moving
> toward better scope control and accountability of our various outreach
> messaging outlets. We can further turn this unfortunate incident into a
> long-overdue opportunity to clean up our incoherent messaging strategies.
>
>
>
> The bottom line from my perspective is that religious freedom initiatives
> are better handled in private discussions with core Libertarians.
> Furthermore, the broader audience that we are trying to connect with to
> achieve our long-term goal of freedom for all would probably put the
> religious freedom issue well below the immediate concerns that define where
> they are at in their personal lives and family circumstances. To connect
> with the broader audience, we need to get off our soapboxes and reach out
> with targeted, tested leading questions that connect first at the emotional
> level with those who do not yet share our Libertarian values and goals.
>
>
>
> Once we figure out, for example, that African-American women between the
> ages of 30 and 50 are primarily concerned about their sons not being
> murdered (*targeting*) and we determine what leading questions will
> connect with them (*testing*), we can work on our messaging *techniques*
> to leverage their immediate emotional concerns, plant seeds of doubt in
> their statist solutions and open the door for them to ask us for more
> information about how Libertarians would go about surmounting the immediate
> obstacles faced by their segment of society. Let’s explore the art of
> “winning hearts and minds, not arguments” as a much more effective
> messaging strategy to accomplish our end goal of freedom, nothing more,
> nothing less.
>
>
>
> I look forward to working with all of you to turn this obvious outreach
> misstep into a tremendous opportunity and positive turning point for the
> Libertarian Party as we build a winning messaging strategy.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> ~David
>
>
>
> *Omaha Roads to Liberty Un-Convention*
>
>
>
> ~David Pratt Demarest
>
> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>
> Secretary, LPNE State Central Committee
>
> Cell:      402-981-6469 <(402)%20981-6469>
>
> Home: 402-493-0873 <(402)%20493-0873>
>
>
>
> *From:* Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Daniel Hayes
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2017 5:11 AM
> *To:* lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Lnc-business] Satanic Post - LNC Input Requested
>
>
>
> Just speaking for myself,  I think that as part of the process there may
> come some recommendations out of the newly formed committee regarding
> content in the rather broad sense, but that remains to be seen.
>
>
>
> In this series, "FreeToBelieve", people that start to analyze it may
> notice a disproportionate representation on a per capita basis.
>
>
>
> You have 2 memes for an organization that has less than .01% of the
> population of the United States involved with it. You have zero posts that
> clearly represent the organization that 70% of the population is affiliated
> with.
>
>
>
>  I just can't help but think that that looks like it favors one over the
> other.  The fact that the ONLY one that had more than one meme presented
> was the one that represents that one mentioning the Satanic Temple could
> seem like the LP favors that ideology over the others.  That's a problem.
> There still exists the problem that there were belief systems that were not
> represented here in the series.
>
> I still think the right thing to do is to remove the whole thing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Daniel Hayes
>
> LNC At Large Member
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Apr 20, 2017, at 4:23 AM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There are certainly process problems, but I'll comment on the content as
> well.
>
> I don't understand what the #FreeToBelieve series, at least the way it has
> been approached, is supposed to accomplish.
>
> The value of freedom of religion is not about what various religions have
> in common, but in how they are DIFFERENT.  The value is that two people can
> have polar opposite religious beliefs but still live together in a free
> country.  If I believe it's a sin to wear the color red, and you believe
> it's a sin to not wear the color red, guess what?  We both can live side by
> side in a libertarian society.  I'll wear blue, and you'll wear red, and
> neither of us imprisons the other over it.
>
>
>
> It's one thing if we make a graphic symbolizing that people with widely
> varying religious beliefs are part of the LP...though perhaps we should
> avoid turning their religious symbols upside down in the graphic...that
> cover pic is gone now.
>
> This series has started quoting religious texts, however, and posting them
> to make some kind of a political statement.  Religion and politics don't
> mix.  We're playing with fire, and it's not surprising that we got burned.
> Quote something out of context, and your target audience is offended that
> you're twisting context to try to tell them their God wants them to be
> Libertarian.  The word "freedom" in a religious text may not mean freedom
> like the LP talks about...it may at times mean freedom from a previous
> oppressor...or freedom from consequences of sin...  What if it's a
> figurative passage, or a parable, or someone's dream sequence, and we just
> yank it out of place to use it for our agenda?
>
> Religion is a set of standards that you impose on yourself voluntarily.
> Politics is about a set of standards that you are willing to use the force
> of government to impose on others.  (For the anarchists in the LP, that's a
> null set.)
>
> Sometimes there are overlapping areas of agreement between your religion
> and your politics, but those conclusions are arrived at for COMPLETELY
> DIFFERENT REASONS.  Maybe your religion teaches "Thou shall not commit
> murder" because God said so, and there's eternal punishment to consider.
> Libertarians say murder is unacceptable because it is the ultimate
> initiation of force which permanently deprives the victim of all of their
> rights.  Completely different reasons for the same conclusion.
>
> When we start quoting religious texts as some sort of support for our
> political views, what is that supposed to mean???
>
> Sure, there are some religions that call for theocracies in which the
> religious and political standards are identical, but we're not advocating
> for that, right?  So why are we quoting religious texts at all?
>
> There are a very large number of quotes from the same religious texts that
> we would not post.  We're not going to post, "Remember the Sabbath to keep
> it holy", are we?  (Using Ten Commandment examples just because so many are
> at least familiar with them.)  They may be a fine way for a person to
> choose to live for themselves, but to enforce that standard on others
> deprives them of the freedom to have a different religious view.  Good for
> religion.  Not so much for libertarian politics.
>
> Why even go there?  It's completely unnecessary to wander into such
> dangerous territory, and religion is not the basis for our politics.
>
> -Alicia
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 6:44 AM, Arvin Vohra <votevohra at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi All -
>
>
>
> I'd like to request LNC oversight on the Satanic Temple posting as part of
> the #FreeToBelieve series. I don't want to see our volunteers raked over
> the coals for issues related to the LNC or APRC.
>
>
>
> Is a Satanic Temple Posting:
>
>
>
> 1. Fine on any day of the year
>
> 2. Never ok
>
> 3. Generally ok, but not during a religious holiday of a conflicting
> religion.
>
>
>
> If future posts go up, I'd like it to be very clear on what the LNC views
> are, so that volunteers are not blamed for our decisions.
>
>
>
> My view: I don't think that this is a battle worth picking. You can
> already be as Satanic as you want in America, so we're not gaining
> anything. I'd much rather focus on repealing laws and taxes that exist.
>
>
>
> Personally, I have no opposition to the Satanic Temple. As part of an
> overall study of religion, I have read sections of various "Satanic" books,
> and written in non-political areas on mythology parallels between
> Prometheus in Greek Mythology and Lucifer in the Judaeo-Christian
> tradition. Realistically, I'll probably look into the religious legal
> protections they have, based on the comments by the chair, to see how
> others can do the same. I'd love to see an America in which every single
> house and apartment building is legally seen as a religious location that
> pays no property taxes.
>
>
>
> -Arvin
>
>
>
> --
>
> Arvin Vohra
>
> www.VoteVohra.com
> VoteVohra at gmail.com
> (301) 320-3634
>
>
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-- 
*In Liberty,*
*Caryn Ann Harlos*
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona,
Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org>
Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
<http://www.lpcolorado.org>
Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus
<http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org>
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
*We defend your rights*
*And oppose the use of force*
*Taxation is theft*
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