[Lnc-business] Latest Libertarian Bruhaha

Caryn Ann Harlos caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
Sat Jan 13 18:04:33 EST 2018


And Arvin is compulsively and obsessively pursuing the topic on social
media.

Folks this isn’t normal or acceptable.


-Caryn Ann

On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 3:25 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
wrote:

> Can we please respond to the list so members can see the discussions?
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> Date: Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 3:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
> To: David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
> CC: Aaron Starr <aaron.starr at lp.org>, Alicia Mattson <
> alicia.mattson at lp.org>, Arvin Vohra <arvin.vohra at lp.org>, Daniel Hayes <
> daniel.hayes at lp.org>, David Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com>, Dustin
> Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>, Ed Marsh <ed.marsh at lp.org>, Elizabeth Van
> Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>, Erin Adams <erin.adams at lp.org>, George
> Syroney <georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>, Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>,
> James Lark <james.lark at lp.org>, Jeffrey Hewitt <jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>,
> Joshua Katz <joshua.katz at lp.org>, Larry Sharpe <larry.sharpe at lp.org>,
> Michelle MacCutcheon <michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>, Nicholas Sarwark <
> chair at lp.org>, Patrick McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>, Sam Goldstein <
> sam.goldstein at lp.org>, Sean OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>, Starchild <
> sfdreamer at earthlink.net>, Steven Nekhaila <steven.nekhaila at lp.org>,
> Steven Nielson <steven.nielson at lp.org>, Tim Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>,
> Trent Somes <trent.somes at lp.org>, Whitney Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>,
> William Redpath <william.redpath at lp.org>
>
>
> David I agree that there are completely panicked responses that are
> irrational or just unlibertarian - that the state is Mommy and Daddy ...
> but not everyone’s are.  And those who are not ARE RIGHT.
>
> Arvin is wrong here and is incredibly destructive and doesn’t get to
> shield himself with “muh Principles” / I share them with just as much
> anarchist bona fides as he, and his lack of wisdom, discretion, and
> messaging are utterly inappropriate for a leader of the nation’s third
> largest political party.
>
> I’m not making “radical” friends with this.  It will cost me.
>
> I don’t care.  I wasn’t elected to protect myself or my friends but this
> Party.
>
> I was one of the long-suffering before.  I have forbearance and patience.
> I’m done.  And the completely disrespectful and patronizing email last
> night by him to this list was the final evidence.
>
> My opinion is clear.  He should resign.  However my *vote* depends on my
> region.
>
> -Caryn Ann
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 3:03 PM David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Caryn Ann,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your response and inclusion of rationality in this
>> discussion. Now we are getting somewhere, but there is much work left to
>> do. My underlying point is that if we Libertarians intend to present a
>> rational face both internally and to the broader audience, it is high time
>> to put the rational ‘horse’ before the passionate emotional response
>> ‘cart’. Reason without heart and heart without reason is a false dichotomy.
>> The real question is which comes first. I am a passionate Libertarian but
>> only after doing up-front rational due-diligence analysis. Our primary
>> means of survival is our rational capacity. I never cease to be amazed at
>> Libertarians who dismiss our rational capacity and resort to the vitriolic
>> nonsense that we have witnessed in this latest ideological fiasco.
>>
>>
>>
>> You will notice that Arvin’s ‘inflammatory’ comments are all about
>> rational analysis and his passionate responses AFTER arriving at his
>> rational conclusions. I can understand that some disagree with some of his
>> rational analysis. However, when their responses and calls to lynch mob
>> action are conspicuously if not entirely devoid of anything remotely
>> related to rational analysis, pardon me, but I am totally unimpressed and
>> disappointed. Caryn Ann, you have done a better job, but several issues
>> bear further rational examination.
>>
>>
>>
>> If reasoned logical and rational conclusion make the job harder to get
>> elected to top-down authoritarian positions, that raises a huge red flag
>> and the question of what comes first. If getting elected takes precedence
>> over accurate representation of the dictates of one’s conscience, we
>> obviously have a fundamental ethical dilemma, exacerbated, of course, by
>> our current cronyism-riddled non-competitive form of governance. I find the
>> notion of determining the dictates of one’s conscience by taking a popular
>> poll both morally offensive and ethically indefensible. I am totally
>> unsympathetic to the evil notion of making one’s dictates of conscience
>> subservient to get elected to top-down authoritarian positions in our
>> cronyism-riddled and corrupt electoral system.
>>
>>
>>
>> Per our earlier discussion, I can see the similarity between possession
>> of black-market child pornography and the possession of black-market stolen
>> goods. However, the bigger concern from my perspective is how we handle our
>> disapproval, i.e., whether by oppressive, arbitrary and corrupt government
>> enforcement, lynch mob justice or the far more powerful and effective
>> long-term means of thoughtful economic and social ostracism or
>> reinforcement feedback as appropriate.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have seen many vitriolic, hysterical and lynch-mob responses to the
>> current bruhaha just as we did on the earlier hubbubs last year about
>> Satan-gate and putting the military and public-school teachers on
>> inappropriate pedestals. I hate to say this, but we Libertarians have a
>> long way to go. Are we capable of fixing the underlying problems? Yes! Do
>> the current brute-force responses to this ruckus have us headed in the
>> right direction. No!
>>
>>
>>
>> It might surprise some, but fortunately there have been some rational
>> responses to Arvin’s rational approach to these important
>> government-imposed moral-dilemma questions. You must look hard to find them
>> under the current vitriolic mindless smoke screen, but they are there. Just
>> as the principled Libertarian ideas that led to the creation of the
>> Libertarian Party, reflected in our Statement of Principles, were scorned
>> by most back in 1971, now is the time for the next step to re-rationalize
>> our current Libertarian ideological principle base beyond mere crass
>> emotionalism and thoughtless lynch-mob mentality.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would point out again that these bruhahas appear to be primarily and
>> directly related to electoral concerns. I would submit that those
>> false-dichotomy electoral concerns will get relegated to insignificance
>> when entrepreneurs build private replacements for government overreach
>> social services. If you have a choice of who you buy social services from
>> free of government social service monopoly interference, that choice will
>> set the stage and inspire the election of Libertarians to all levels of
>> government, starting from the bottom up, to provide for the necessary
>> regulatory relief.
>>
>>
>>
>> Enough of this mindless rationality-rejecting lynch-mob vitriolic fiasco.
>> Let’s get on with using our heads for what they were designed for, namely
>> passionate responses AFTER thoughtful due-diligence analysis, not before.
>>
>>
>>
>> Caryn Ann, your injection of the fresh air of rationality into this
>> bruhaha is a step in the right direction. Keep up the good work!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> ~David Pratt
>>
>>
>>
>> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
>> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>>
>>
>>
>> ~David Pratt Demarest
>>
>> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>>
>> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>>
>> LSLA Vice-Chair
>>
>> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>>
>> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>>
>> David.Demarest at LP.org
>>
>> Secretary at LPNE.org
>>
>> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>>
>> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>>
>> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>>
>> Cell:      402-981-6469
>>
>> Home: 402-493-0873
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 12:52 PM
>> *To:* David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
>> *Cc:* Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net>; Michelle MacCutcheon <
>> michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>; George Syroney <georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>;
>> Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>; Erin Adams <erin.adams at lp.org>;
>> Whitney Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>; Sam Goldstein <
>> sam.goldstein at lp.org>; Tim Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>; Daniel Hayes <
>> daniel.hayes at lp.org>; Jeffrey Hewitt <jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>; Joshua
>> Katz <joshua.katz at lp.org>; James Lark <james.lark at lp.org>; Ed Marsh <
>> ed.marsh at lp.org>; Alicia Mattson <alicia.mattson at lp.org>; Patrick
>> McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>;
>> Steven Nekhaila <steven.nekhaila at lp.org>; Steven Nielson <
>> steven.nielson at lp.org>; Sean OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>; William
>> Redpath <william.redpath at lp.org>; Nicholas Sarwark <chair at lp.org>; Larry
>> Sharpe <larry.sharpe at lp.org>; Trent Somes <trent.somes at lp.org>; Aaron
>> Starr <aaron.starr at lp.org>; Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>;
>> Arvin Vohra <arvin.vohra at lp.org>; David Demarest <
>> dprattdemarest at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi David, I can assure you I am not betraying the dictates of my reason.
>> Reason without heart is inhuman.  Heart without reason is base animalism.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do I believe in freedom of speech and expression?  Do I think the
>> overwrought reactions to nudity are downright nonsensical?  Does that mean
>> I must think James Weeks was a courageous voice?  No.  Because it was
>> foolish, counterproductive, and violated others.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just because someone might have something "Libertarian" they are saying
>> in there somewhere (i.e. arbitrary age of consent laws are collectivist -
>> note that doesn't mean they can't generally get it right - generalizations
>> can be true because they have some truth or no one would buy them) doesn't
>> mean they are a courageous hero.
>>
>>
>>
>> In fact, rather than being a beacon of light, Arvin is actively harming
>> the presentation of core libertarian values by providing a plentiful target
>> for which the principle can be scapegoated.  His awful presentation of
>> issues surrounding the military, education, welfare, etc have given the
>> opponents of libertarian principles, both within and without, a way to
>> smear to the principles with the messenger.  We may not like that such can
>> be easily done.  But if wishes were fishes we would all cast nets.  As for
>> me, I don't live on wishes and unicorns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Arvin is affecting me personally.  He is making my life, my job, and my
>> presentation of liberty harder.  That is not heroic.  That is an obstacle.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have sent out an inquiry to the Regional Chairs today to see their
>> thoughts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, this is my position.  I think Arvin should resign.  This has
>> gotten ridiculous.  Alternatively, the delegates can make their choice in
>> July.  But a lot of damage is done between then and now.  To put his peers
>> and associates in the position of having to vote to censure or remove is an
>> incredibly selfish and belligerent move.
>>
>>
>>
>> The "response" last night to the LNC list was a perfect example of the
>> tone-deaf tactic.  A member responded that it seemed to them like
>> gaslighting.  And as someone who has been involved in very manipulative
>> relationships, they hit the nail on the head.
>>
>>
>>
>> Enough is enough.
>>
>>
>>
>> And what he is doing is going to lead precisely to what he is saying he
>> is "saving us from" (newsflash, we didn't elect a messiah)- worse
>> candidates that do not stick to principles because we have modeled them in
>> the worst possible way and made the liberating beauty of freedom repulsive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you want the party to take a hard turn towards unprincipled
>> "centrism"? This is how you get it.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Caryn Ann
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 9:36 AM, David Demarest <
>> dpdemarest at centurylink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Damn. I was looking forward to a visit tomorrow to a neighboring state LP
>> business meeting to publicize the rapidly approaching NOLA National
>> Convention and Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention. Halleluiah, now I can
>> use the possible snowy roads as an excuse to avoid the inevitable fallout
>> from the latest Libertarian ruckus that will likely dominate the business
>> meeting. However, that would be the coward’s way out. Furthermore, I had a
>> dream just before waking up this morning that has changed my perspective.
>>
>>
>>
>> First a little background behind the dream I am about to narrate. I
>> belong to the Alternative Book Club (ABC), which is a spinoff from
>> Toastmasters focused on collaborative non-fiction books, most notably their
>> ‘*Spotlight on the Art of …*’ series. My first published article was the
>> ‘*Big Picture Significance*’ chapter in their latest release, ‘*Spotlight
>> on the Art of Significance*’. I recently had to take a hiatus from
>> Toastmasters and the book club until after I leave First Data on March 2
>> nd, launch my writing career, get the Roads to Freedom Foundation off
>> the ground, and get through the exciting crush of 2018 Libertarian events,
>> including several state conventions, LSLA national conference, Omaha Roads
>> to Freedom UnConvention, Porc Fest, NOLA National LP Convention, and
>> Freedom Fest. Whew!
>>
>>
>>
>> Today, however, I am happy to report that my dream this morning, clearly
>> prompted by the latest Libertarian hubbub, has changed my outlook on this
>> controversy and my inclination to stay at home tomorrow. I do not mysticise
>> the value of dreams. Nevertheless, they likely appear to be a reaction to
>> internal conflicts complicated by random associations that often provoke
>> new perspectives and happily generate seeds for future writing projects.
>> Even though many of my ideas are a bit controversial for the Alternative
>> Book Club, my dream this morning revolved around the book club analysis,
>> assimilation and development of possible solutions to the latest
>> Libertarian bruhaha and incorporation of them into a new collaborative book
>> titled ‘*Spotlight on the Art of Solving Libertarian Bruhahas*’. J
>>
>>
>>
>> As best I can recall, my dream focused on the passionate but logical,
>> objective and courageous voice of reason rising above the wilderness of
>> pile-on band-wagon political-correctness, over-dramatized reactions and
>> subjective emotion-based shrill howl of the mob. Dreams, of course, are
>> typically exaggerations of reality. What particularly struck me in my dream
>> were the mob mutterings of “I don’t trust others (voters and other
>> Libertarians) to take care of their own feelings” and “I don’t trust myself
>> to take responsibility for my own feelings”. Two other things stood out in
>> my dream. One was the almost universal preponderance of mob concerns that
>> reflected their fear of scaring off voters and losing votes in their drive
>> to gain elected authority over others that prompted them to misrepresent
>> the dictates of their conscience in a desperate search for votes. The other
>> was the incessant blaming of a controversial figure as a misrepresentation
>> of their own self-doubts.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sure my random dream associations stemmed in part from the valuable
>> conflict resolution, stress management and negotiation training under the
>> banner of assertive behavior counseling that was a turning point in my life
>> and helped me through a ‘mid-life crisis’. Just as important, my earlier
>> assertiveness training taught me that sitting around blaming controversial
>> figures for my personal intellectual discomforts was particularly
>> unconstructive behavior and did little to resolve either my personal
>> internal conflicts or the controversy whose source I was using as a
>> scapegoat for my personal shortcomings and self-esteem/self-image issues.
>>
>>
>>
>> You know, I feel better already knowing that my dream unjustly
>> characterized many Libertarians. Armed with that realization, I am prepared
>> to risk the snowy roads to Kansas City tomorrow and enjoy the company of
>> rational Libertarians as we celebrate Libertarian victories and prepare for
>> tremendous progress in 2018.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sure the mob will have fun with my dream. Nevertheless, I hope it
>> serves to help point this controversy in a different and more rational
>> direction.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> ~David Pratt
>>
>>
>>
>> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
>> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>>
>>
>>
>> ~David Pratt Demarest
>>
>> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>>
>> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>>
>> LSLA Vice-Chair
>>
>> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>>
>> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>>
>> David.Demarest at LP.org
>>
>> Secretary at LPNE.org
>>
>> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>>
>> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>>
>> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>>
>> Cell:      402-981-6469 <(402)%20981-6469>
>>
>> Home: 402-493-0873 <(402)%20493-0873>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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