[Lnc-business] Fwd: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
Date: Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
To: David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
CC: Aaron Starr <aaron.starr at lp.org>, Alicia Mattson <alicia.mattson at lp.org>,
Arvin Vohra <arvin.vohra at lp.org>, Daniel Hayes <daniel.hayes at lp.org>, David
Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com>, Dustin Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>, Ed
Marsh <ed.marsh at lp.org>, Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>,
Erin Adams <erin.adams at lp.org>, George Syroney <georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>,
Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>, James Lark <james.lark at lp.org>,
Jeffrey Hewitt <jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>, Joshua Katz <joshua.katz at lp.org>,
Larry Sharpe <larry.sharpe at lp.org>, Michelle MacCutcheon <
michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>, Nicholas Sarwark <chair at lp.org>, Patrick
McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>, Sam Goldstein <sam.goldstein at lp.org>,
Sean OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>, Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net>,
Steven Nekhaila <steven.nekhaila at lp.org>, Steven Nielson <
steven.nielson at lp.org>, Tim Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>, Trent Somes <
trent.somes at lp.org>, Whitney Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>, William
Redpath <william.redpath at lp.org>


That we will.

To parallel your thoughts, I don’t allow the fact that there are vitriolic
opportunistic critics to give me an out to the fact that there is
legitimate concern.

Frankly Arvin has taken cover under that too many times and I may be slow
too see it and give benefit of the doubt but once seen it cannot be unseen.

My conscience is to vote yes at this time.  However my promise to my Region
was to represent them unless it violated my principles.  I would not vote
no at this time but rather abstain if my region didn’t want a yes.  I could
change my mind.

But nothing - certainly not Arvin’s behavior- is persuading me.

And this is costing me.  Some have decided I am a faux radical and
anarchist.

When I campaigned I said my views cross factional lines.  That results in
everyone being irked at something but I sleep like a baby.

-Caryn Ann


On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 4:32 PM David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
wrote:

> Caryn Ann,
>
>
>
> We will have to agree to disagree about the objective value of Arvin’s
> comments. That is not surprising and healthy among principled Libertarians.
> Contrary to some that are operating on hearsay, I have read and carefully
> analyzed much of Arvin’s comments. He has courageously identified several
> government-imposed moral dilemmas that many Libertarians are not handling
> appropriately because we would starve if we dealt with them in one fell
> swoop. Arvin has done the hard work of rational analysis and expressed
> himself passionately on his rational conclusions. The are many more
> important government-imposed moral dilemmas that have not been addressed
> yet that we Libertarians need to face up to even if we must play with the
> cards dealt to us today and make personal adjustments incrementally.
>
>
>
> Most of the irrational garbage messages I have seen so far by most
> contributors to this discussion represent passionate expressions with
> little or no rational basis and, even more concerning, the blatant refusal
> to base their arguments on a sound rational footing. To be blunt, I would
> tell those irrational lynch-mob ‘activists’ to get off their intellectual
> backsides and do the hard rational-analysis work that Arvin has done. Then
> we will be in a better position to have serious discussions and get on with
> the Libertarian movement agenda. The current vitriolic level of irrational
> discussion is unacceptable and poorly represents Libertarian values and
> principles. Give outsiders the credit they deserve. They may not agree with
> some of our rational principles because they do not understand them yet.
> However, they can smell political-correctness misrepresentations of
> conscience a mile away and will not be impressed.
>
>
>
> I will listen carefully to any serious and thoughtful input from Region 6
> Libertarian activists and beyond. The bulk of the shrill responses I have
> seen so far are disappointing but there have been some less-noticed
> exceptions. However, I will always, always vote my conscience regardless of
> any risk of political capital. I will never cave in to the temptation to
> conserve political capital at the expense my conscience. I could care less
> about reaping political capital rewards and have accordingly
> self-term-limited myself to one term as Region 6 Representative to make
> room for fresh voices that will hopefully always vote the dictates of their
> conscience.
>
>
>
> I have zero respect for those who do not vote their conscience and the
> same goes for those who favor filling the tank with gas and putting the
> pedal to the metal with no thought to a moral-compass steering wheel. That
> will get them somewhere in a hurry but is it really where they want to go?
> I thought that a moral-compass ‘steering wheel’ was what we Libertarians
> were fighting for. Lynch-mob Libertarians need to look themselves in the
> eye and do some serious soul-searching on how they are going to
> differentiate themselves from the duopoly opposition that has no moral
> compass.
>
>
>
> Hopefully, we are ready to stop wallowing in this disgusting bandwagon
> political-correctness quicksand and move on to more appropriate Libertarian
> initiatives, including addressing some of the legitimate issues that Arvin
> has raised.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> ~David Pratt
>
>
>
> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>
>
>
> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>
>
>
> ~David Pratt Demarest
>
> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>
> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>
> LSLA Vice-Chair
>
> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>
> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>
> David.Demarest at LP.org
>
> Secretary at LPNE.org
>
> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>
> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>
> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>
> Cell:      402-981-6469
>
> Home: 402-493-0873
>
>
>
> *From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org]
>
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 4:25 PM
> *To:* David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
> *Cc:* Aaron Starr <aaron.starr at lp.org>; Alicia Mattson <
> alicia.mattson at lp.org>; Arvin Vohra <arvin.vohra at lp.org>; Daniel Hayes <
> daniel.hayes at lp.org>; David Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com>; Dustin
> Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>; Ed Marsh <ed.marsh at lp.org>; Elizabeth Van
> Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>; Erin Adams <erin.adams at lp.org>; George
> Syroney <georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>; Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>;
> James Lark <james.lark at lp.org>; Jeffrey Hewitt <jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>;
> Joshua Katz <joshua.katz at lp.org>; Larry Sharpe <larry.sharpe at lp.org>;
> Michelle MacCutcheon <michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>; Nicholas Sarwark <
> chair at lp.org>; Patrick McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>; Sam Goldstein <
> sam.goldstein at lp.org>; Sean OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>; Starchild <
> sfdreamer at earthlink.net>; Steven Nekhaila <steven.nekhaila at lp.org>;
> Steven Nielson <steven.nielson at lp.org>; Tim Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>;
> Trent Somes <trent.somes at lp.org>; Whitney Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>;
> William Redpath <william.redpath at lp.org>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
>
>
>
> David I agree that there are completely panicked responses that are
> irrational or just unlibertarian - that the state is Mommy and Daddy ...
> but not everyone’s are.  And those who are not ARE RIGHT.
>
>
>
> Arvin is wrong here and is incredibly destructive and doesn’t get to
> shield himself with “muh Principles” / I share them with just as much
> anarchist bona fides as he, and his lack of wisdom, discretion, and
> messaging are utterly inappropriate for a leader of the nation’s third
> largest political party.
>
>
>
> I’m not making “radical” friends with this.  It will cost me.
>
>
>
> I don’t care.  I wasn’t elected to protect myself or my friends but this
> Party.
>
>
>
> I was one of the long-suffering before.  I have forbearance and patience.
> I’m done.  And the completely disrespectful and patronizing email last
> night by him to this list was the final evidence.
>
>
>
> My opinion is clear.  He should resign.  However my *vote* depends on my
> region.
>
>
>
> -Caryn Ann
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 3:03 PM David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Caryn Ann,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your response and inclusion of rationality in this
> discussion. Now we are getting somewhere, but there is much work left to
> do. My underlying point is that if we Libertarians intend to present a
> rational face both internally and to the broader audience, it is high time
> to put the rational ‘horse’ before the passionate emotional response
> ‘cart’. Reason without heart and heart without reason is a false dichotomy.
> The real question is which comes first. I am a passionate Libertarian but
> only after doing up-front rational due-diligence analysis. Our primary
> means of survival is our rational capacity. I never cease to be amazed at
> Libertarians who dismiss our rational capacity and resort to the vitriolic
> nonsense that we have witnessed in this latest ideological fiasco.
>
>
>
> You will notice that Arvin’s ‘inflammatory’ comments are all about
> rational analysis and his passionate responses AFTER arriving at his
> rational conclusions. I can understand that some disagree with some of his
> rational analysis. However, when their responses and calls to lynch mob
> action are conspicuously if not entirely devoid of anything remotely
> related to rational analysis, pardon me, but I am totally unimpressed and
> disappointed. Caryn Ann, you have done a better job, but several issues
> bear further rational examination.
>
>
>
> If reasoned logical and rational conclusion make the job harder to get
> elected to top-down authoritarian positions, that raises a huge red flag
> and the question of what comes first. If getting elected takes precedence
> over accurate representation of the dictates of one’s conscience, we
> obviously have a fundamental ethical dilemma, exacerbated, of course, by
> our current cronyism-riddled non-competitive form of governance. I find the
> notion of determining the dictates of one’s conscience by taking a popular
> poll both morally offensive and ethically indefensible. I am totally
> unsympathetic to the evil notion of making one’s dictates of conscience
> subservient to get elected to top-down authoritarian positions in our
> cronyism-riddled and corrupt electoral system.
>
>
>
> Per our earlier discussion, I can see the similarity between possession of
> black-market child pornography and the possession of black-market stolen
> goods. However, the bigger concern from my perspective is how we handle our
> disapproval, i.e., whether by oppressive, arbitrary and corrupt government
> enforcement, lynch mob justice or the far more powerful and effective
> long-term means of thoughtful economic and social ostracism or
> reinforcement feedback as appropriate.
>
>
>
> We have seen many vitriolic, hysterical and lynch-mob responses to the
> current bruhaha just as we did on the earlier hubbubs last year about
> Satan-gate and putting the military and public-school teachers on
> inappropriate pedestals. I hate to say this, but we Libertarians have a
> long way to go. Are we capable of fixing the underlying problems? Yes! Do
> the current brute-force responses to this ruckus have us headed in the
> right direction. No!
>
>
>
> It might surprise some, but fortunately there have been some rational
> responses to Arvin’s rational approach to these important
> government-imposed moral-dilemma questions. You must look hard to find them
> under the current vitriolic mindless smoke screen, but they are there. Just
> as the principled Libertarian ideas that led to the creation of the
> Libertarian Party, reflected in our Statement of Principles, were scorned
> by most back in 1971, now is the time for the next step to re-rationalize
> our current Libertarian ideological principle base beyond mere crass
> emotionalism and thoughtless lynch-mob mentality.
>
>
>
> I would point out again that these bruhahas appear to be primarily and
> directly related to electoral concerns. I would submit that those
> false-dichotomy electoral concerns will get relegated to insignificance
> when entrepreneurs build private replacements for government overreach
> social services. If you have a choice of who you buy social services from
> free of government social service monopoly interference, that choice will
> set the stage and inspire the election of Libertarians to all levels of
> government, starting from the bottom up, to provide for the necessary
> regulatory relief.
>
>
>
> Enough of this mindless rationality-rejecting lynch-mob vitriolic fiasco.
> Let’s get on with using our heads for what they were designed for, namely
> passionate responses AFTER thoughtful due-diligence analysis, not before.
>
>
>
> Caryn Ann, your injection of the fresh air of rationality into this
> bruhaha is a step in the right direction. Keep up the good work!
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> ~David Pratt
>
>
>
> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>
>
>
> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>
>
>
> ~David Pratt Demarest
>
> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>
> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>
> LSLA Vice-Chair
>
> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>
> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>
> David.Demarest at LP.org
>
> Secretary at LPNE.org
>
> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>
> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>
> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>
> Cell:      402-981-6469
>
> Home: 402-493-0873
>
>
>
> *From:* Caryn Ann Harlos [mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org]
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 13, 2018 12:52 PM
> *To:* David Demarest <dpdemarest at centurylink.net>
> *Cc:* Starchild <sfdreamer at earthlink.net>; Michelle MacCutcheon <
> michellemaccutcheon at gmail.com>; George Syroney <georgeliberty67 at gmail.com>;
> Harold Thomas <harold.thomas at lpo.org>; Erin Adams <erin.adams at lp.org>;
> Whitney Bilyeu <whitney.bilyeu at lp.org>; Sam Goldstein <
> sam.goldstein at lp.org>; Tim Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org>; Daniel Hayes <
> daniel.hayes at lp.org>; Jeffrey Hewitt <jeffrey.hewitt at lp.org>; Joshua Katz
> <joshua.katz at lp.org>; James Lark <james.lark at lp.org>; Ed Marsh <
> ed.marsh at lp.org>; Alicia Mattson <alicia.mattson at lp.org>; Patrick
> McKnight <patrick.mcknight at lp.org>; Dustin Nanna <dustin.nanna at lp.org>;
> Steven Nekhaila <steven.nekhaila at lp.org>; Steven Nielson <
> steven.nielson at lp.org>; Sean OToole <sean.otoole at lp.org>; William Redpath
> <william.redpath at lp.org>; Nicholas Sarwark <chair at lp.org>; Larry Sharpe <
> larry.sharpe at lp.org>; Trent Somes <trent.somes at lp.org>; Aaron Starr <
> aaron.starr at lp.org>; Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org>; Arvin
> Vohra <arvin.vohra at lp.org>; David Demarest <dprattdemarest at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Latest Libertarian Bruhaha
>
>
>
> Hi David, I can assure you I am not betraying the dictates of my reason.
> Reason without heart is inhuman.  Heart without reason is base animalism.
>
>
>
> Do I believe in freedom of speech and expression?  Do I think the
> overwrought reactions to nudity are downright nonsensical?  Does that mean
> I must think James Weeks was a courageous voice?  No.  Because it was
> foolish, counterproductive, and violated others.
>
>
>
> Just because someone might have something "Libertarian" they are saying in
> there somewhere (i.e. arbitrary age of consent laws are collectivist - note
> that doesn't mean they can't generally get it right - generalizations can
> be true because they have some truth or no one would buy them) doesn't mean
> they are a courageous hero.
>
>
>
> In fact, rather than being a beacon of light, Arvin is actively harming
> the presentation of core libertarian values by providing a plentiful target
> for which the principle can be scapegoated.  His awful presentation of
> issues surrounding the military, education, welfare, etc have given the
> opponents of libertarian principles, both within and without, a way to
> smear to the principles with the messenger.  We may not like that such can
> be easily done.  But if wishes were fishes we would all cast nets.  As for
> me, I don't live on wishes and unicorns.
>
>
>
> Arvin is affecting me personally.  He is making my life, my job, and my
> presentation of liberty harder.  That is not heroic.  That is an obstacle.
>
>
>
> I have sent out an inquiry to the Regional Chairs today to see their
> thoughts.
>
>
>
> Personally, this is my position.  I think Arvin should resign.  This has
> gotten ridiculous.  Alternatively, the delegates can make their choice in
> July.  But a lot of damage is done between then and now.  To put his peers
> and associates in the position of having to vote to censure or remove is an
> incredibly selfish and belligerent move.
>
>
>
> The "response" last night to the LNC list was a perfect example of the
> tone-deaf tactic.  A member responded that it seemed to them like
> gaslighting.  And as someone who has been involved in very manipulative
> relationships, they hit the nail on the head.
>
>
>
> Enough is enough.
>
>
>
> And what he is doing is going to lead precisely to what he is saying he is
> "saving us from" (newsflash, we didn't elect a messiah)- worse candidates
> that do not stick to principles because we have modeled them in the worst
> possible way and made the liberating beauty of freedom repulsive.
>
>
>
> Do you want the party to take a hard turn towards unprincipled "centrism"?
> This is how you get it.
>
>
>
> -Caryn Ann
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 9:36 AM, David Demarest <
> dpdemarest at centurylink.net> wrote:
>
> Damn. I was looking forward to a visit tomorrow to a neighboring state LP
> business meeting to publicize the rapidly approaching NOLA National
> Convention and Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention. Halleluiah, now I can
> use the possible snowy roads as an excuse to avoid the inevitable fallout
> from the latest Libertarian ruckus that will likely dominate the business
> meeting. However, that would be the coward’s way out. Furthermore, I had a
> dream just before waking up this morning that has changed my perspective.
>
>
>
> First a little background behind the dream I am about to narrate. I belong
> to the Alternative Book Club (ABC), which is a spinoff from Toastmasters
> focused on collaborative non-fiction books, most notably their ‘*Spotlight
> on the Art of …*’ series. My first published article was the ‘*Big
> Picture Significance*’ chapter in their latest release, ‘*Spotlight on
> the Art of Significance*’. I recently had to take a hiatus from
> Toastmasters and the book club until after I leave First Data on March 2nd,
> launch my writing career, get the Roads to Freedom Foundation off the
> ground, and get through the exciting crush of 2018 Libertarian events,
> including several state conventions, LSLA national conference, Omaha Roads
> to Freedom UnConvention, Porc Fest, NOLA National LP Convention, and
> Freedom Fest. Whew!
>
>
>
> Today, however, I am happy to report that my dream this morning, clearly
> prompted by the latest Libertarian hubbub, has changed my outlook on this
> controversy and my inclination to stay at home tomorrow. I do not mysticise
> the value of dreams. Nevertheless, they likely appear to be a reaction to
> internal conflicts complicated by random associations that often provoke
> new perspectives and happily generate seeds for future writing projects.
> Even though many of my ideas are a bit controversial for the Alternative
> Book Club, my dream this morning revolved around the book club analysis,
> assimilation and development of possible solutions to the latest
> Libertarian bruhaha and incorporation of them into a new collaborative book
> titled ‘*Spotlight on the Art of Solving Libertarian Bruhahas*’. J
>
>
>
> As best I can recall, my dream focused on the passionate but logical,
> objective and courageous voice of reason rising above the wilderness of
> pile-on band-wagon political-correctness, over-dramatized reactions and
> subjective emotion-based shrill howl of the mob. Dreams, of course, are
> typically exaggerations of reality. What particularly struck me in my dream
> were the mob mutterings of “I don’t trust others (voters and other
> Libertarians) to take care of their own feelings” and “I don’t trust myself
> to take responsibility for my own feelings”. Two other things stood out in
> my dream. One was the almost universal preponderance of mob concerns that
> reflected their fear of scaring off voters and losing votes in their drive
> to gain elected authority over others that prompted them to misrepresent
> the dictates of their conscience in a desperate search for votes. The other
> was the incessant blaming of a controversial figure as a misrepresentation
> of their own self-doubts.
>
>
>
> I am sure my random dream associations stemmed in part from the valuable
> conflict resolution, stress management and negotiation training under the
> banner of assertive behavior counseling that was a turning point in my life
> and helped me through a ‘mid-life crisis’. Just as important, my earlier
> assertiveness training taught me that sitting around blaming controversial
> figures for my personal intellectual discomforts was particularly
> unconstructive behavior and did little to resolve either my personal
> internal conflicts or the controversy whose source I was using as a
> scapegoat for my personal shortcomings and self-esteem/self-image issues.
>
>
>
> You know, I feel better already knowing that my dream unjustly
> characterized many Libertarians. Armed with that realization, I am prepared
> to risk the snowy roads to Kansas City tomorrow and enjoy the company of
> rational Libertarians as we celebrate Libertarian victories and prepare for
> tremendous progress in 2018.
>
>
>
> I am sure the mob will have fun with my dream. Nevertheless, I hope it
> serves to help point this controversy in a different and more rational
> direction.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> ~David Pratt
>
>
>
> *May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom UnConvention - *
> https://OmahaUnConvention.com/
>
>
>
> *Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less, For All People*
>
>
>
> ~David Pratt Demarest
>
> Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder - https://R2FF.org/
>
> LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)
>
> LSLA Vice-Chair
>
> LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary
>
> LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator
>
> David.Demarest at LP.org
>
> Secretary at LPNE.org
>
> DPDemarest at centurylink.net
>
> DPrattDemarest at gmail.com
>
> David.Demarest at OmahaUnConvention.com
>
> Cell:      402-981-6469 <(402)%20981-6469>
>
> Home: 402-493-0873 <(402)%20493-0873>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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