[Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-03: Censure of Arvin Vohra
Caryn Ann Harlos
caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
Mon Jan 22 21:02:21 EST 2018
I can be fairly certain that the delegates DID not get what they were
bargaining for. If they did, so many would not be upset - that would be
foolish. I certainly did not get what I, as a delegate, bargained for. I
never in a million years would have voted for this kind of callous
messaging. I never would ever agree that we need "less empathy" as a
Party. In fact, if the Party and its membership decided that is the route
they wanted to go, well then I would find something else to do. Empathy is
what makes us human rather than simply economical calculators. No one
would win election on that premise.
And we ask why we don't have some groups in our Party... particularly
women. Well there you go. While of course there are exceptions, in
general, instead of saying less empathy, he might as well have said less
women. I am not the most touchy-feely of women and have no maternal
instinct, and that made me very unwelcome. I can imagine how women who
hold heart to be a major part of politics and society and have raised and
nurtured families would feel.
There may be a lot of angst over my position, such as the fact that for
some this is a bare naked attempt to purge radicals. In fact, it has gone
from being barely disguised to openly and proudly stated. *That is just as
bad as wanting to purge those more moderate but we don't see many LNC tears
shed for that.* I will continue to call it out. But one thing I have
little doubt or angst about is being certain that the same delegates who
voted for Johnson and Weld would be the same people who would have known
what they were getting with Arvin and said, yeah, that's just what I want.
It beggars belief.
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn <
elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
> I still favor the electronic meeting.
>
> ---
> Elizabeth Van Horn
> LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
> Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
> Chair-LP Social Media Process Review Committee
> Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
> http://www.lpcaucus.org/
>
>
> On 2018-01-22 20:36, Joshua Katz wrote:
>
>> It appears this email ballot has replaced the drive for an electronic
>> meeting. I fear that, if this motion fails, this means the ordeal will
>> not end, and that instead other email ballots will be forthcoming. In
>> fact, should it fail, I am inclined to cosponsor one.
>> I am not yet ready to vote. Instead, I write to argue some points in
>> favor, and some against. I look forward to seeing the debate develop
>> further, now that we have before us a precise action to debate, and
>> intend to base my vote on any further points raised. For now, I remain
>> strongly inclined to vote no.
>> First, I will address the wording briefly. I deny that Mr. Vohra has
>> presented libertarian ideas in some, but not all, of his posts. This
>> motion, though, clearly refers to his most recent remarks, and I deny
>> that they are grounded in libertarian ideas. As you know, I argue in
>> favor of a large libertarian tent. I think much belongs in the broad
>> libertarian tradition. That said, there is a line. In my opinion,
>> while the line-drawing exercise is a separate topic, just as day is not
>> night despite the existence of dusk, so too is there a rather large
>> area of actions so contrary to developmental and societal norms as to
>> be far outside libertarian inquiry. I defend line-drawing, but do not
>> think that criticisms of it fail to be libertarian. On the other hand,
>> the denial that there is a zone of unacceptability is, in my view,
>> utterly morally indefensible and shocking to the conscience.
>> Yet, even recently, some of Mr. Vohra's points have been well within
>> our libertarian tradition. The abuse of SORs is an affront to liberty,
>> and we must end it. Yet we can take action to end of restrict it, or
>> we can simply speak words which make it harder to address. I believe
>> Mr. Vohra's recent actions fall into the latter category, and to that
>> extent, and only that extent, I agree with the factual claims of the
>> motion.
>> Yet, I ask, so what? Is my strong moral disgust with his words reason
>> to censure? The Vice Chair, it is true, sometimes speaks for the
>> Party. Even when he speaks individually, he is perceived as speaking
>> for us. He has made it clear, both through his actions and his words,
>> that he intends to drag this Party in the direction he wishes to go,
>> one I find utterly unlikely to succeed, morally inferior, and, in point
>> of of fact, one in which I simply will never go. If he succeeds in his
>> project, it will be without me. It is clear to me, though, from our
>> members' reactions, that he will not succeed. His remarks do make me
>> less proud, perhaps even ashamed, to present myself as a Libertarian,
>> until I remember their low reach among the general public. I am proud
>> to stand for my notion of what liberty means. I will not be forced to
>> stand for a concept of liberty I find detestable, unfree, and immoral.
>> At the same time, I am concerned about the consequences of this board
>> choosing to monitor the off-work statements of its members, and assign
>> censure for them. Will we stick to what I consider detestable - and,
>> if we do, should that be enough to reassure me that doing so is fine?
>> Many have written, asking us to take some form of action, and
>> prophesying grave consequences if we do not. Some of these,
>> particularly the internal, I do not doubt. Others, I doubt. Before
>> turning to those doubts, though, I will weigh in on an issue which has
>> been much discussed already here. In keeping with every corporate
>> code, our Articles of Incorporation, and our bylaws, I believe we are
>> here to be leaders, not in a purely representative capacity. During
>> region formation, I pushed for, and received, a provision making it
>> easier than in past agreements to remove our rep and alternate. I
>> explained my reasons then: I intended to act as I saw best, for the
>> organization's health. Certainly, input from the region would form a
>> part of my judgment, but in the end, my judgment would be my own.
>> Given that, I wanted my region to have an easy solution if my actions
>> did not comport with its vision. In fact, I also made clear that it
>> would take less than the regional agreement said to remove me, that I
>> would resign if I felt there was widespread dissatisfaction with my
>> votes. I am no longer a regional alternate, though - and now feel the
>> same way about the national party, except that "widespread" is
>> obviously a higher threshold. Others feel differently, and that is
>> fine with me, so long as we all keep in mind that we, and no one else,
>> are the fiduciaries, that we, and no one else, will be held responsible
>> for the Party's health.
>> Another reason for this model is precisely the current situation.
>> Reactions and overreactions to individual incidents call for sober
>> reflection. Our members depend on us to provide that. Yet another
>> reason, perhaps the most important to me personally, is that we serve
>> more than our members. A party is, in some sense, like a benefit
>> corporation. It has many stakeholders beyond its membership. Notably,
>> it serves the voters. 67% of voters want a viable third party. It is
>> a mistake to say they should all vote Libertarian, of course, since
>> many do not agree with our views and values. However, the public
>> desire for better candidates and a better party does make it incumbent
>> on us to try to provide one. We must often look beyond our narrow
>> interests and to the society in which we exist.
>> Which brings me to my next point. While Mr. Vohra's comments are, in
>> my view, harmful, they also bring to the surface other issues. I
>> haven't conducted the polling, but I have some predictions. If I
>> polled random voters, statistically none would know who our Vice Chair
>> is - just as statistically none would know the Vice Chairs of other
>> parties. If I polled voters of a particular party, the results would
>> vary. Statistically no Republicans would know who their Vice Chair
>> is. Statistically no Democrats would know who their Vice Chair is.
>> Statistically, a rather significant portion of our voters would know
>> who our Vice Chair is. The difference is that we are following a
>> non-scalable model. We simply cannot be successful at the polls and
>> maintain that number, and we act far more often in ways that maintain
>> our closed-circle nature than that aim for success at the polls. Ronna
>> McDaniels says, in response to outrageous tweets from a far more public
>> figure than Mr. Vohra, that she has an organization to run and doesn't
>> have time to comment. We exchange hundreds of emails when our Vice
>> Chair says something outrageous.
>> We are not serving the voters. We are serving ourselves, and we are
>> doing it with money donated, in part, for us to serve the public. This
>> is a shame, and this is the source of our current woes. We speak about
>> harming our candidates, yet I firmly believe any candidate can, right
>> now, go walk doors and hear 0 questions about Mr. Vohra. I have no
>> doubt, of course, that some of our candidates can be harmed, if their
>> opponents take the time to research our party, manage to find Mr.
>> Vohra's comments which are not on any of our accounts (of course, if
>> our members, and our detractors, choose to comment about them on our
>> accounts, this will be far easier), and then to link our candidates to
>> them. This is a serious concern for some candidates, and if I heard
>> from those candidates that a motion like this would help their
>> campaigns, that might make a difference to me. I have heard nothing
>> from those candidates. Our social media bubbles have convinced us that
>> the world knows and cares. It does not. The actual concern is that
>> candidates themselves drop out, activists themselves leave, and so on,
>> in response to these comments. These are serious concerns: we need
>> candidates, we need activists, we need donors. Yet they cannot be our
>> voting base, and we cannot serve only their interests. In fact, those
>> observations are related. Other parties do not hemorrhage candidates,
>> activists, and donors every time their Vice Chair says something,
>> because their candidates, activists, and donors are not running, being
>> active, and donating based on those sorts of internal concerns.
>> Rather, their candidates run for their electoral base. Their activists
>> volunteer to expand their electoral base. Their donors donate to make
>> action happen, to make laws change - because they have an electoral
>> base to sweep them to office, so long as work is done to fill the
>> narrow gap remaining.
>> The motions about Mr. Vohra are about people within our party being
>> upset. We should react to such concerns, but they should not be the
>> only concerns to which we react.
>> Finally, we should respect the views of our delegates, who vote to form
>> a board expressing the aggregate of their individual preferences
>> (within the limits imposed by Arrow's Theorem). I disagree with those
>> who say the delegates did not know what they were getting. Perhaps as
>> a factual matter that is true, I can't say. But they could have, and
>> should have, known what they were getting, and I consider their vote to
>> be expressing a preference in that regard. It is not our role to
>> reverse them or, depending on how we see it, to save them. This Party
>> is ultimately ruled by the delegates, and we, should we choose to serve
>> on this board, must live within their decisions (as restricted by
>> corporate codes and bylaws). Censure is, in this regard, far different
>> from removal, but arises from the same place.
>>
>> Virus-free. [1]www.avast.com
>>
>> Joshua A. Katz
>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:03 PM, Alicia Mattson
>> <[2]agmattson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We have an electronic mail ballot.
>> Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by January 30, 2018 at
>> 11:59:59pm Pacific time.
>> Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Hewitt, Demarest, Hagan
>> Motion: to censure LNC Vice Chair Arvin Vohra for repeated
>> public
>> comments which have presented libertarian ideas in an
>> inflammatory and
>> sometimes offensive manner not conducive to Libertarian leaders
>> and
>> candidates for public office winning hearts and minds for those
>> ideas.
>> -Alicia
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lnc-business mailing list
>> [3]Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> [4]http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
>>
>> References
>>
>> Visible links
>> 1.
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=
>> link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>> 2. mailto:agmattson at gmail.com
>> 3. mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 4. http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
>>
>> Hidden links:
>> 6.
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=
>> link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>> 7. file://localhost/tmp/tmpoGaAKX.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-
>> 4E2AA1F9FDF2
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lnc-business mailing list
>> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Lnc-business mailing list
> Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
>
-------------- next part --------------
I can be fairly certain that the delegates DID not get what they were
bargaining for. If they did, so many would not be upset - that would
be foolish. I certainly did not get what I, as a delegate, bargained
for. I never in a million years would have voted for this kind of
callous messaging. I never would ever agree that we need "less
empathy" as a Party. In fact, if the Party and its membership decided
that is the route they wanted to go, well then I would find something
else to do. Empathy is what makes us human rather than simply
economical calculators. No one would win election on that premise.
And we ask why we don't have some groups in our Party... particularly
women. Well there you go. While of course there are exceptions, in
general, instead of saying less empathy, he might as well have said
less women. I am not the most touchy-feely of women and have no
maternal instinct, and that made me very unwelcome. I can imagine how
women who hold heart to be a major part of politics and society and
have raised and nurtured families would feel.
There may be a lot of angst over my position, such as the fact that for
some this is a bare naked attempt to purge radicals. In fact, it has
gone from being barely disguised to openly and proudly stated. That is
just as bad as wanting to purge those more moderate but we don't see
many LNC tears shed for that. I will continue to call it out. But one
thing I have little doubt or angst about is being certain that the same
delegates who voted for Johnson and Weld would be the same people who
would have known what they were getting with Arvin and said, yeah,
that's just what I want. It beggars belief.
On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 6:47 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn
<[1]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
I still favor the electronic meeting.
---
Elizabeth Van Horn
LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
Chair-LP Social Media Process Review Committee
Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
[2]http://www.lpcaucus.org/
On 2018-01-22 20:36, Joshua Katz wrote:
It appears this email ballot has replaced the drive for an electronic
meeting. I fear that, if this motion fails, this means the ordeal
will
not end, and that instead other email ballots will be forthcoming.
In
fact, should it fail, I am inclined to cosponsor one.
I am not yet ready to vote. Instead, I write to argue some points
in
favor, and some against. I look forward to seeing the debate
develop
further, now that we have before us a precise action to debate, and
intend to base my vote on any further points raised. For now, I
remain
strongly inclined to vote no.
First, I will address the wording briefly. I deny that Mr. Vohra
has
presented libertarian ideas in some, but not all, of his posts.
This
motion, though, clearly refers to his most recent remarks, and I
deny
that they are grounded in libertarian ideas. As you know, I argue
in
favor of a large libertarian tent. I think much belongs in the
broad
libertarian tradition. That said, there is a line. In my opinion,
while the line-drawing exercise is a separate topic, just as day is
not
night despite the existence of dusk, so too is there a rather large
area of actions so contrary to developmental and societal norms as
to
be far outside libertarian inquiry. I defend line-drawing, but do
not
think that criticisms of it fail to be libertarian. On the other
hand,
the denial that there is a zone of unacceptability is, in my view,
utterly morally indefensible and shocking to the conscience.
Yet, even recently, some of Mr. Vohra's points have been well within
our libertarian tradition. The abuse of SORs is an affront to
liberty,
and we must end it. Yet we can take action to end of restrict it,
or
we can simply speak words which make it harder to address. I
believe
Mr. Vohra's recent actions fall into the latter category, and to
that
extent, and only that extent, I agree with the factual claims of the
motion.
Yet, I ask, so what? Is my strong moral disgust with his words
reason
to censure? The Vice Chair, it is true, sometimes speaks for the
Party. Even when he speaks individually, he is perceived as
speaking
for us. He has made it clear, both through his actions and his
words,
that he intends to drag this Party in the direction he wishes to go,
one I find utterly unlikely to succeed, morally inferior, and, in
point
of of fact, one in which I simply will never go. If he succeeds in
his
project, it will be without me. It is clear to me, though, from our
members' reactions, that he will not succeed. His remarks do make
me
less proud, perhaps even ashamed, to present myself as a
Libertarian,
until I remember their low reach among the general public. I am
proud
to stand for my notion of what liberty means. I will not be forced
to
stand for a concept of liberty I find detestable, unfree, and
immoral.
At the same time, I am concerned about the consequences of this
board
choosing to monitor the off-work statements of its members, and
assign
censure for them. Will we stick to what I consider detestable -
and,
if we do, should that be enough to reassure me that doing so is
fine?
Many have written, asking us to take some form of action, and
prophesying grave consequences if we do not. Some of these,
particularly the internal, I do not doubt. Others, I doubt. Before
turning to those doubts, though, I will weigh in on an issue which
has
been much discussed already here. In keeping with every corporate
code, our Articles of Incorporation, and our bylaws, I believe we
are
here to be leaders, not in a purely representative capacity. During
region formation, I pushed for, and received, a provision making it
easier than in past agreements to remove our rep and alternate. I
explained my reasons then: I intended to act as I saw best, for the
organization's health. Certainly, input from the region would form
a
part of my judgment, but in the end, my judgment would be my own.
Given that, I wanted my region to have an easy solution if my
actions
did not comport with its vision. In fact, I also made clear that it
would take less than the regional agreement said to remove me, that
I
would resign if I felt there was widespread dissatisfaction with my
votes. I am no longer a regional alternate, though - and now feel
the
same way about the national party, except that "widespread" is
obviously a higher threshold. Others feel differently, and that is
fine with me, so long as we all keep in mind that we, and no one
else,
are the fiduciaries, that we, and no one else, will be held
responsible
for the Party's health.
Another reason for this model is precisely the current situation.
Reactions and overreactions to individual incidents call for sober
reflection. Our members depend on us to provide that. Yet another
reason, perhaps the most important to me personally, is that we
serve
more than our members. A party is, in some sense, like a benefit
corporation. It has many stakeholders beyond its membership.
Notably,
it serves the voters. 67% of voters want a viable third party. It
is
a mistake to say they should all vote Libertarian, of course, since
many do not agree with our views and values. However, the public
desire for better candidates and a better party does make it
incumbent
on us to try to provide one. We must often look beyond our narrow
interests and to the society in which we exist.
Which brings me to my next point. While Mr. Vohra's comments are,
in
my view, harmful, they also bring to the surface other issues. I
haven't conducted the polling, but I have some predictions. If I
polled random voters, statistically none would know who our Vice
Chair
is - just as statistically none would know the Vice Chairs of other
parties. If I polled voters of a particular party, the results
would
vary. Statistically no Republicans would know who their Vice Chair
is. Statistically no Democrats would know who their Vice Chair is.
Statistically, a rather significant portion of our voters would know
who our Vice Chair is. The difference is that we are following a
non-scalable model. We simply cannot be successful at the polls and
maintain that number, and we act far more often in ways that
maintain
our closed-circle nature than that aim for success at the polls.
Ronna
McDaniels says, in response to outrageous tweets from a far more
public
figure than Mr. Vohra, that she has an organization to run and
doesn't
have time to comment. We exchange hundreds of emails when our Vice
Chair says something outrageous.
We are not serving the voters. We are serving ourselves, and we are
doing it with money donated, in part, for us to serve the public.
This
is a shame, and this is the source of our current woes. We speak
about
harming our candidates, yet I firmly believe any candidate can,
right
now, go walk doors and hear 0 questions about Mr. Vohra. I have no
doubt, of course, that some of our candidates can be harmed, if
their
opponents take the time to research our party, manage to find Mr.
Vohra's comments which are not on any of our accounts (of course, if
our members, and our detractors, choose to comment about them on our
accounts, this will be far easier), and then to link our candidates
to
them. This is a serious concern for some candidates, and if I heard
from those candidates that a motion like this would help their
campaigns, that might make a difference to me. I have heard nothing
from those candidates. Our social media bubbles have convinced us
that
the world knows and cares. It does not. The actual concern is that
candidates themselves drop out, activists themselves leave, and so
on,
in response to these comments. These are serious concerns: we need
candidates, we need activists, we need donors. Yet they cannot be
our
voting base, and we cannot serve only their interests. In fact,
those
observations are related. Other parties do not hemorrhage
candidates,
activists, and donors every time their Vice Chair says something,
because their candidates, activists, and donors are not running,
being
active, and donating based on those sorts of internal concerns.
Rather, their candidates run for their electoral base. Their
activists
volunteer to expand their electoral base. Their donors donate to
make
action happen, to make laws change - because they have an electoral
base to sweep them to office, so long as work is done to fill the
narrow gap remaining.
The motions about Mr. Vohra are about people within our party being
upset. We should react to such concerns, but they should not be the
only concerns to which we react.
Finally, we should respect the views of our delegates, who vote to
form
a board expressing the aggregate of their individual preferences
(within the limits imposed by Arrow's Theorem). I disagree with
those
who say the delegates did not know what they were getting. Perhaps
as
a factual matter that is true, I can't say. But they could have,
and
should have, known what they were getting, and I consider their vote
to
be expressing a preference in that regard. It is not our role to
reverse them or, depending on how we see it, to save them. This
Party
is ultimately ruled by the delegates, and we, should we choose to
serve
on this board, must live within their decisions (as restricted by
corporate codes and bylaws). Censure is, in this regard, far
different
from removal, but arises from the same place.
Virus-free. [1][3]www.avast.com
Joshua A. Katz
On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 9:03 PM, Alicia Mattson
<[2][4]agmattson at gmail.com> wrote:
We have an electronic mail ballot.
Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by January 30, 2018 at
11:59:59pm Pacific time.
Co-Sponsors: Hayes, Hewitt, Demarest, Hagan
Motion: to censure LNC Vice Chair Arvin Vohra for repeated
public
comments which have presented libertarian ideas in an
inflammatory and
sometimes offensive manner not conducive to Libertarian leaders
and
candidates for public office winning hearts and minds for those
ideas.
-Alicia
_______________________________________________
Lnc-business mailing list
[3][5]Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
[4][6]http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
References
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[14]Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
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References
1. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
2. http://www.lpcaucus.org/
3. http://www.avast.com/
4. mailto:agmattson at gmail.com
5. mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org
6. http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
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