[Lnc-business] draft minutes of 02/02/18 LNC meeting
Alicia Mattson
alicia.mattson at lp.org
Mon Feb 12 05:25:27 EST 2018
Tim, thanks for fishing out something that suggests that Starchild's email
was sent prior to the deadline. Perhaps the IT committee can take a look
at the time on the LP mail server to see if it's running fast, or perhaps
it just took that long for the email to traverse the internet and land on
our server.
At the beginning of the term we established that the deadline on email
votes would be 11:59:59 Pacific. I don't recall the LNC previously having
discussed whether that meant the vote had to be sent by that time or if it
had to be received by that time.
I do recall an email ballot during May 2013 (I was not LNC Secretary at the
time) for which Dr. Lark demonstrated that his vote had been sent prior to
the voting deadline, but his vote was not counted in the results. I don't
think the LNC weighed in on how to handle it, though.
My initial instinct is to lean in the direction of counting it if there is
evidence that it was sent prior to the deadline, as email delivery times
can be variable and not in the control of the sender. There could be good
arguments on the other side. In life there are many things we may not be
able to control after we failed to plan ahead, but we're still held
accountable for the result because we should have planned ahead. If
someone sends a vote 1 hour before the deadline, and it doesn't make it, I
think we'd all feel sympathetic about that. If someone sends it 1 second
before the deadline, maybe there would be less sympathy and disputes about
whose clock is more accurate to that small of an increment.
I am putting this into my notes for the next LNC meeting so I can ask the
LNC how they wish to handle the question of interpreting the deadline.
-Alicia
On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Tim Hagan <tim.hagan at lp.org> wrote:
> I looked at the header of Starchild's e-mail from 31 January, and copied
> it below. The header shows lpmail.lp.org received the e-mail from
> ca.comcast.net at 31 Jan 2018 02:56:02 -0500 (EST). It appears to be then
> sent to lnc-business at 31 Jan 2018 03:10:14 -0500 (EST). The header shows
> he mailed his vote 3 minutes and 57 seconds before the 11:59:59 pm PST
> deadline.
>
> Having to investigate e-mails' time can be prevented by members not
> waiting until the last couple of minutes to cast their vote.
>
> Return-Path: <lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org>
> Delivered-To: tim.hagan at lp.org
> Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> by lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC1B360A25;
> Wed, 31 Jan 2018 03:10:15 -0500 (EST)
> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at lpmail.lp.org
> Received: from lpmail.lp.org ([127.0.0.1])
> by localhost (lpmail.lp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026)
> with ESMTP id p8Ysc8LjTPmh; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 03:10:14 -0500 (EST)
> Received: from lpmail.lp.org (localhost [IPv6:::1])
> by lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7313608A6;
> Wed, 31 Jan 2018 03:10:14 -0500 (EST)
> X-Original-To: lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> Delivered-To: lnc-business at lpmail.lp.org
> Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
> by lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A81736041B
> for <lnc-business at hq.lp.org>; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 02:56:03 -0500 (EST)
> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at lpmail.lp.org
> Received: from lpmail.lp.org ([127.0.0.1])
> by localhost (lpmail.lp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026)
> with ESMTP id QiAYL2taJHYE for <lnc-business at hq.lp.org>;
> Wed, 31 Jan 2018 02:56:03 -0500 (EST)
> Received: from [10.0.1.2] (c-24-5-86-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.5.86.49])
> (Authenticated sender: starchild at lp.org)
> by lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BEF4236036B
> for <lnc-business at hq.lp.org>; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 02:56:02 -0500 (EST)
> From: Starchild <starchild at lp.org>
> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085)
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5-60405565
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 00:06:40 -0800
> In-Reply-To: <59EFC450-5DF8-4541-A7C0-55C220C9E2E7 at lp.org>
> To: lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> References: <CA+Jr9xG-YeQQhyqvyzmpvigbnfawM4coVRJaJKzo72cctaJ1uQ at mail.gm
> ail.com>
> <4e29c9ed82a7314a15f0d599e14ccdc6 at lp.org>
> <CABMBB6XODBtU__9L4QSs0A+Hp_eZ4xRCpmWL_0TXdmH6P_di3w at mail.gmail.com>
> <CAL4U=_qS+8JWHK9PoJ0aCWHJveMTHPr+G8hLcrReO58RTHq1Qw at mail.gmail.com>
> <1a03e89f9bb66fde0cf3188295da58e2 at lp.org>
> <CAD7JHu0UpxEqWcw-L3LjbTMEbmVkkWMgfS+U8xyqwiVVVcxF9w at mail.gmail.com>
> <CAL4U=_pNoSnMMd+GuC6F6Za3v+sZcHsJxFPsC=B81OW5PprFmw at mail.gmail.com>
> <E2A31FA5-ABCA-4F2F-8BA6-074BD27F3EC3 at lp.org>
> <CAL4U=_rTRbO=4ZHAMdOsR2jmn7MF_4PbAREEeNbgt+P6ZUwufQ at mail.gmail.com>
> <CAL4U=_r3SLBFKLzyjxbtXc3XojquCbre-ndhhv1FkXz+jqwc6g at mail.gmail.com>
> <59EFC450-5DF8-4541-A7C0-55C220C9E2E7 at lp.org>
> Message-Id: <4D191E96-E717-4D61-95CC-65171FF1D76C at lp.org>
> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085)
> X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20
> Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-03: Censure of Arvin Vohra
> X-BeenThere: lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: <lnc-business.hq.lp.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/lnc-business>,
> <mailto:lnc-business-request at hq.lp.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> List-Archive: <http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/>
> List-Post: <mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org>
> List-Help: <mailto:lnc-business-request at hq.lp.org?subject=help>
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> <mailto:lnc-business-request at hq.lp.org?subject=subscribe>
> Reply-To: lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> Errors-To: lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org
> Sender: "Lnc-business" <lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org>
>
> ---
> Tim Hagan
> Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee
>
> On 2018-02-10 03:27, Starchild wrote:
>
>> Alicia,
>>
>> In the previous cases from last year and the year before there's
>> no
>> dispute that I voted after the voting period had expired (I'm pretty
>> sure I acknowledged as much at the time), but in this case I'm
>> confident I voted in a timely manner, and since my vote will not
>> affect the outcome one way or the other I see little reason to be
>> inflexible about adding a note, at a minimum, if not actually count
>> the vote. Unfortunately I'm not enough of a techie to know how to
>> prove to you that my vote was cast before midnight here, beyond
>> whatever evidence may be contained in the email itself, but I honestly
>> believe that to be the case.
>>
>> The reason I consider it important to include my comment about the
>> motion to adjourn in the minutes is that if it is not included, moving
>> to allow public comment when I'd previously moved to adjourn could
>> look blatantly hypocritical, and I don't think it's fair to leave
>> readers with that impression when I noted my error in the chat window,
>> and verbally, before later moving to allow public comment (which
>> shouldn't even need a motion, imho, as it should always be part of our
>> meetings!).
>>
>> Love & Liberty,
>>
>> ((( starchild )))
>> At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>> RealReform at earthlink.net
>> (415) 625-FREE
>> @StarchildSF
>>
>>
>> On Feb 5, 2018, at 11:21 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:
>>
>> Starchild,
>>> Several LNC members commented during the meeting, with each believing
>>> that their comments were important enough to say out loud. I didn't
>>> record their general debate comments in the minutes, either.
>>> Regarding the late vote on the email ballot:
>>> On the 2017-14 email ballot when another member voted too late, I did
>>> not add a note to the minutes.
>>> On the 2017-13 email ballot when another member voted too late, I did
>>> not add a note to the minutes.
>>> On the 2017-08 email ballot when you voted 3 hours too late, I did not
>>> add a note to the minutes.
>>> On the 2016-09 email ballot when you voted 3 minutes, 52 seconds too
>>> late, I did not add a note to the minutes.
>>> I don't see a reason to treat this situation differently than I have
>>> consistently handled it throughout this term.
>>> We've given a very generous interpretation to the ending time for email
>>> ballots, and the only time stamp that I have is the one on the email
>>> server. If, however, you have some other evidence that your vote was
>>> actually cast before the deadline (it can happen), simply provide it so
>>> the LNC and I can consider counting your vote.
>>> -Alicia
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Starchild <[1]starchild at lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Alicia. I would like it noted in the minutes that
>>> when I moved to allow public comment, I stated that my previous
>>> motion to adjourn had been inappropriate, because we had not yet had
>>> public comment. Will you make this change?
>>> Also I did not see a response from you regarding my request
>>> that it be noted in the minutes that I cast a vote against the email
>>> censure ballot, but you found the vote came after the clock on the
>>> LP server indicated it was several minutes after the voting deadline
>>> and therefore it was not counted (although as I noted, it was not
>>> late according to the time as recorded by my cell phone).
>>> Love & Liberty,
>>> ((( starchild )))
>>> At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
>>> [2]RealReform at earthlink.net
>>> (415) 625-FREE
>>>
>>> On Feb 4, 2018, at 1:49 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attached are the first draft minutes from the February 2, 2018 LNC
>>>> electronic meeting.
>>>> Please note that comments on the minutes are due by February 19.
>>>> -Alicia
>>>>
>>>
>>> <2018_02_02 LNC Minutes - v1.pdf>
>>>>
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:starchild at lp.org
>>> 2. mailto:RealReform at earthlink.net
>>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
Tim, thanks for fishing out something that suggests that Starchild's
email was sent prior to the deadline. Perhaps the IT committee can
take a look at the time on the LP mail server to see if it's running
fast, or perhaps it just took that long for the email to traverse the
internet and land on our server.
At the beginning of the term we established that the deadline on email
votes would be 11:59:59 Pacific. I don't recall the LNC previously
having discussed whether that meant the vote had to be sent by that
time or if it had to be received by that time.
I do recall an email ballot during May 2013 (I was not LNC Secretary at
the time) for which Dr. Lark demonstrated that his vote had been sent
prior to the voting deadline, but his vote was not counted in the
results. I don't think the LNC weighed in on how to handle it, though.
My initial instinct is to lean in the direction of counting it if there
is evidence that it was sent prior to the deadline, as email delivery
times can be variable and not in the control of the sender. There
could be good arguments on the other side. In life there are many
things we may not be able to control after we failed to plan ahead, but
we're still held accountable for the result because we should have
planned ahead. If someone sends a vote 1 hour before the deadline, and
it doesn't make it, I think we'd all feel sympathetic about that. If
someone sends it 1 second before the deadline, maybe there would be
less sympathy and disputes about whose clock is more accurate to that
small of an increment.
I am putting this into my notes for the next LNC meeting so I can ask
the LNC how they wish to handle the question of interpreting the
deadline.
-Alicia
On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:33 PM, Tim Hagan <[1]tim.hagan at lp.org>
wrote:
I looked at the header of Starchild's e-mail from 31 January, and
copied it below. The header shows [2]lpmail.lp.org received the
e-mail from [3]ca.comcast.net at 31 Jan 2018 02:56:02 -0500 (EST).
It appears to be then sent to lnc-business at 31 Jan 2018 03:10:14
-0500 (EST). The header shows he mailed his vote 3 minutes and 57
seconds before the 11:59:59 pm PST deadline.
Having to investigate e-mails' time can be prevented by members not
waiting until the last couple of minutes to cast their vote.
Return-Path: <[4]lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org>
Delivered-To: [5]tim.hagan at lp.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by [6]lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC1B360A25;
Wed, 31 Jan 2018 03:10:15 -0500 (EST)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at [7]lpmail.lp.org
Received: from [8]lpmail.lp.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost ([9]lpmail.lp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new,
port 10026)
with ESMTP id p8Ysc8LjTPmh; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 03:10:14 -0500
(EST)
Received: from [10]lpmail.lp.org (localhost [IPv6:::1])
by [11]lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7313608A6;
Wed, 31 Jan 2018 03:10:14 -0500 (EST)
X-Original-To: [12]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
Delivered-To: [13]lnc-business at lpmail.lp.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by [14]lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A81736041B
for <[15]lnc-business at hq.lp.org>; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 02:56:03 -0500
(EST)
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10026)
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Received: from [10.0.1.2] ([20]c-24-5-86-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
[24.5.86.49])
(Authenticated sender: [21]starchild at lp.org)
by [22]lpmail.lp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BEF4236036B
for <[23]lnc-business at hq.lp.org>; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 02:56:02 -0500
(EST)
From: Starchild <[24]starchild at lp.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5-60405565
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 00:06:40 -0800
In-Reply-To: <[25]59EFC450-5DF8-4541-A7C0-55C220C9E2E7 at lp.org>
To: [26]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
References: <[27]CA+Jr9xG-YeQQhyqvyzmpvigbnfaw
M4coVRJaJKzo72cctaJ1uQ at mail.gmail.com>
<[28]4e29c9ed82a7314a15f0d599e14ccdc6 at lp.org>
<[29]CABMBB6XODBtU__9L4QSs0A+Hp_eZ4xRCpmWL_0TXdmH6P_di3w at mail.g
mail.com>
<CAL4U=_[30]qS+8JWHK9PoJ0aCWHJveMTHPr+G8hLcrReO58RTHq1Qw at mail.g
mail.com>
<[31]1a03e89f9bb66fde0cf3188295da58e2 at lp.org>
<[32]CAD7JHu0UpxEqWcw-L3LjbTMEbmVkkWMgfS+U8xyqwiVVVcxF9w at mail.g
mail.com>
<CAL4U=_pNoSnMMd+GuC6F6Za3v+sZcHsJxFPsC=[33]B81OW5PprFmw at mail.g
mail.com>
<[34]E2A31FA5-ABCA-4F2F-8BA6-074BD27F3EC3 at lp.org>
<CAL4U=_rTRbO=[35]4ZHAMdOsR2jmn7MF_4PbAREEeNbgt+P6ZUwufQ at mail.g
mail.com>
<CAL4U=_[36]r3SLBFKLzyjxbtXc3XojquCbre-ndhhv1FkXz+jqwc6g at mail.g
mail.com>
<[37]59EFC450-5DF8-4541-A7C0-55C220C9E2E7 at lp.org>
Message-Id: <[38]4D191E96-E717-4D61-95CC-65171FF1D76C at lp.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085)
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.20
Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-03: Censure of Arvin
Vohra
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---
Tim Hagan
Treasurer, Libertarian National Committee
On 2018-02-10 03:27, Starchild wrote:
Alicia,
In the previous cases from last year and the year before
there's no
dispute that I voted after the voting period had expired (I'm pretty
sure I acknowledged as much at the time), but in this case I'm
confident I voted in a timely manner, and since my vote will not
affect the outcome one way or the other I see little reason to be
inflexible about adding a note, at a minimum, if not actually count
the vote. Unfortunately I'm not enough of a techie to know how to
prove to you that my vote was cast before midnight here, beyond
whatever evidence may be contained in the email itself, but I
honestly
believe that to be the case.
The reason I consider it important to include my comment
about the
motion to adjourn in the minutes is that if it is not included,
moving
to allow public comment when I'd previously moved to adjourn could
look blatantly hypocritical, and I don't think it's fair to leave
readers with that impression when I noted my error in the chat
window,
and verbally, before later moving to allow public comment (which
shouldn't even need a motion, imho, as it should always be part of
our
meetings!).
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
[51]RealReform at earthlink.net
(415) 625-FREE
@StarchildSF
On Feb 5, 2018, at 11:21 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:
Starchild,
Several LNC members commented during the meeting, with each
believing
that their comments were important enough to say out loud. I
didn't
record their general debate comments in the minutes, either.
Regarding the late vote on the email ballot:
On the 2017-14 email ballot when another member voted too late, I
did
not add a note to the minutes.
On the 2017-13 email ballot when another member voted too late, I
did
not add a note to the minutes.
On the 2017-08 email ballot when you voted 3 hours too late, I did
not
add a note to the minutes.
On the 2016-09 email ballot when you voted 3 minutes, 52 seconds
too
late, I did not add a note to the minutes.
I don't see a reason to treat this situation differently than I
have
consistently handled it throughout this term.
We've given a very generous interpretation to the ending time for
email
ballots, and the only time stamp that I have is the one on the
email
server. If, however, you have some other evidence that your vote
was
actually cast before the deadline (it can happen), simply provide
it so
the LNC and I can consider counting your vote.
-Alicia
On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Starchild
<[1][52]starchild at lp.org> wrote:
Thanks, Alicia. I would like it noted in the minutes
that
when I moved to allow public comment, I stated that my previous
motion to adjourn had been inappropriate, because we had not yet
had
public comment. Will you make this change?
Also I did not see a response from you regarding my
request
that it be noted in the minutes that I cast a vote against the
email
censure ballot, but you found the vote came after the clock on
the
LP server indicated it was several minutes after the voting
deadline
and therefore it was not counted (although as I noted, it was
not
late according to the time as recorded by my cell phone).
Love & Liberty,
((( starchild )))
At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee
[2][53]RealReform at earthlink.net
(415) 625-FREE
On Feb 4, 2018, at 1:49 PM, Alicia Mattson wrote:
Attached are the first draft minutes from the February 2, 2018 LNC
electronic meeting.
Please note that comments on the minutes are due by February 19.
-Alicia
<2018_02_02 LNC Minutes - v1.pdf>
References
1. mailto:[54]starchild at lp.org
2. mailto:[55]RealReform at earthlink.net
References
1. mailto:tim.hagan at lp.org
2. http://lpmail.lp.org/
3. http://ca.comcast.net/
4. mailto:lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org
5. mailto:tim.hagan at lp.org
6. http://lpmail.lp.org/
7. http://lpmail.lp.org/
8. http://lpmail.lp.org/
9. http://lpmail.lp.org/
10. http://lpmail.lp.org/
11. http://lpmail.lp.org/
12. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
13. mailto:lnc-business at lpmail.lp.org
14. http://lpmail.lp.org/
15. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
16. http://lpmail.lp.org/
17. http://lpmail.lp.org/
18. http://lpmail.lp.org/
19. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
20. http://c-24-5-86-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net/
21. mailto:starchild at lp.org
22. http://lpmail.lp.org/
23. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
24. mailto:starchild at lp.org
25. mailto:59EFC450-5DF8-4541-A7C0-55C220C9E2E7 at lp.org
26. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
27. mailto:CA+Jr9xG-YeQQhyqvyzmpvigbnfawM4coVRJaJKzo72cctaJ1uQ at mail.gmail.com
28. mailto:4e29c9ed82a7314a15f0d599e14ccdc6 at lp.org
29. mailto:CABMBB6XODBtU__9L4QSs0A+Hp_eZ4xRCpmWL_0TXdmH6P_di3w at mail.gmail.com
30. mailto:qS+8JWHK9PoJ0aCWHJveMTHPr+G8hLcrReO58RTHq1Qw at mail.gmail.com
31. mailto:1a03e89f9bb66fde0cf3188295da58e2 at lp.org
32. mailto:CAD7JHu0UpxEqWcw-L3LjbTMEbmVkkWMgfS+U8xyqwiVVVcxF9w at mail.gmail.com
33. mailto:B81OW5PprFmw at mail.gmail.com
34. mailto:E2A31FA5-ABCA-4F2F-8BA6-074BD27F3EC3 at lp.org
35. mailto:4ZHAMdOsR2jmn7MF_4PbAREEeNbgt+P6ZUwufQ at mail.gmail.com
36. mailto:r3SLBFKLzyjxbtXc3XojquCbre-ndhhv1FkXz+jqwc6g at mail.gmail.com
37. mailto:59EFC450-5DF8-4541-A7C0-55C220C9E2E7 at lp.org
38. mailto:4D191E96-E717-4D61-95CC-65171FF1D76C at lp.org
39. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
40. http://lnc-business.hq.lp.org/
41. http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/lnc-business
42. mailto:lnc-business-request at hq.lp.org
43. http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/
44. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
45. mailto:lnc-business-request at hq.lp.org
46. http://hq.lp.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business
47. mailto:lnc-business-request at hq.lp.org
48. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
49. mailto:lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org
50. mailto:lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org
51. mailto:RealReform at earthlink.net
52. mailto:starchild at lp.org
53. mailto:RealReform at earthlink.net
54. mailto:starchild at lp.org
55. mailto:RealReform at earthlink.net
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