[Lnc-business] Judicial committee
Caryn Ann Harlos
caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
Thu Jul 5 20:04:47 EDT 2018
===Caryn Ann, if it was wrong at the time, why didn't you protest? ===
I did.
===Why didn't a loud protest rise from the floor? It's not like the LP
delegate body is shy about raising a ruckus from the floor is they're in
disapproval.===
Sometimes it takes a bit to realize precisely what happened. People ARE
raising a ruckus now. From what I hear a pretty major ruckus is going to
come from Region 1.
=== Instead, they were in agreement to suspend the rules. I'm not buying
that the delegate body was so unaware that they were led.===
And I don't usually buy that juries are either, but yet they are.
=== These are people who spent several days doing the very thing you now
wish to disregard. (suspend rules and vote on it) ===
Not under the gun with only two options presented to them in an existential
crisis.
===I'm wondering what has prompted this sudden disavowal of the the
decision the delegate body made? ===
It's not sudden and you can wonder all you want. It is inappropriate. I
said it on the floor. I said it in informal discussions at the meeting. I
said it last year.
We interfered inappropriately and I am not going to sweep that under the
rug.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:59 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn <elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
> wrote:
> Caryn Ann, if it was wrong at the time, why didn't you protest? Why
> didn't a loud protest rise from the floor? It's not like the LP delegate
> body is shy about raising a ruckus from the floor is they're in
> disapproval. Instead, they were in agreement to suspend the rules. I'm
> not buying that the delegate body was so unaware that they were led. These
> are people who spent several days doing the very thing you now wish to
> disregard. (suspend rules and vote on it)
>
> I'm wondering what has prompted this sudden disavowal of the the decision
> the delegate body made?
> ---
> Elizabeth Van Horn
> LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
> Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
> LP Social Media Process Review Committee
> Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
> http://www.lpcaucus.org/
>
>
> On 2018-07-05 19:54, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
>
> And we typically trust juries of our peers but recognize that when they
> are led to the desired decision to the exclusion of other options that is
> not a matter of distrust but of undue influence.
>
> What happened was wrong on many levels.
>
> And the state chairs also have no particularly expertise in how to improve
> our voting methods. Nor do they have the time. Many competent tech persons
> have volunteered.
>
> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:51 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn <
> elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
>
>> I think the same delegates that we trust to suspend rules on other
>> things, are able to make a decision, even if the clock is ticking. These
>> are the same people who sat through multiple days of rules, motions,
>> decisions, and voting. I'm not willing to discount their ability to make
>> decisions. I'll vote 'no' on tossing the decision that the delegate body
>> made. I'll vote 'no' if an attempt is made to do mail-ballots, overriding
>> the body of the delegates, who already made a decision.
>>
>> Regarding Joe Bishop-Henchman's proposal, I'd prefer to have the #4 in
>> his proposal be state chairs. (Or, someone they designate from a state
>> affilate) As the delegates come from the state affiliates, and the state
>> chairs have a vested interest in ensuring future votes at convention are
>> handled well.
>>
>> ---
>> Elizabeth Van Horn
>> LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
>> Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
>> LP Social Media Process Review Committee
>> Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
>> http://www.lpcaucus.org/
>>
>> On 2018-07-05 19:40, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
>>
>>> There are way more qualified people to serve on an exploratory
>>> committee for voting etc, and it should be based on qualifications not
>>> factions and needs to be a lot larger. IF the Secretary is involved
>>> it
>>> should be as an ex-officio member. We have our hands in way too many
>>> pies, and we sure screwed this one up.
>>> With the way the delegates were led to that decision - we put the fix
>>> on it. Unintentionally sure but that wayyyyyy too much interference
>>> in
>>> our own internal elections.
>>> As a member I want At-Larges that were voted in by a majority as is my
>>> right. I think most members, if not forced into a faustian bargain,
>>> would feel the same.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> <[1]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I will vote no if this comes up. There is always a next convention.
>>> We screwed this up last convention. Let the delegates decide.
>>> And I will vote hell no to the last further resolved. The LNC needs
>>> to
>>> stay away from caucuses.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:32 PM, joe.bishop-henchman--- via
>>> Lnc-business
>>> <[2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been thinking about this since the night of the At-Large/JC
>>> election and I do share Ms. Harlos's frustration. I had perhaps 100
>>> delegates who were going to support me already leave by the time we
>>> got to the At-Large election. Complaining about how long balloting
>>> and tabulation took is already the #1 feedback topic I'm getting
>>> from Party members.
>>> That said, I agree with Ms. Van Horn that the Convention did perhaps
>>> the least worst option under the circumstances. I worry that
>>> anything we do that departs from that, be it putting our own people
>>> on or keeping the dead hand of the last JC or sending a mail ballot
>>> to all Party members or some rump thereof, is even more disconnected
>>> from the rules we should be following and destined to be viewed as
>>> illegitimate and post-hoc.
>>> I would like to fix it for next time, as I know many of you do.
>>> Taking Mr. Goldstein's suggestion, I took a stab at tackling three
>>> birds with one stone:
>>> WHEREAS, the Libertarian National Convention on July 3, 2018 voted
>>> that the top vote-getters in the At-Large race fill all available
>>> At-Large seats on the LNC; and
>>> WHEREAS, Rule 9 directs that the election of Judicial Committee
>>> members be conducted as the same manner as specified for at-large
>>> members of the National Committee; and
>>> WHEREAS, LNC action pursuant to Bylaws Article 7, Section 7 would
>>> clear all potential doubts as to who the new LNC members are;
>>> THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that Joshua Smith, Bill Redpath, and
>>> Alicia Mattson are added to the LNC as At-Large members for a
>>> two-year term; and
>>> BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the LNC acknowledges the election of D.
>>> Frank Robinson, Chuck Moulton, Darryl Perry, Ruth Bennett, Geoff
>>> Neale, Jim Turney, and Tricia Sprankle to the Judicial Committee for
>>> a four-year term; and
>>> BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a special committee be established to
>>> present a consensus recommendation to the LNC by September 1, 2019
>>> for improving the election scheduling, balloting, and tabulation
>>> process of LNC elections, with said committee to consist of:
>>> (1) the Party Vice-Chair, who will act as chairperson
>>> (2) the Party Secretary
>>> (3) a designee of the Bylaws & Rules Committee
>>> (4) four Party members appointed by the Party Chair, from among the
>>> various caucuses in the Party.
>>> JBH
>>>
>>> On 2018-07-05 18:04, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business wrote:
>>>
>>> Since we apparently closed the convention without a procedure for
>>> populating the JC, is anyone in the mood for a motion to appoint
>>> the
>>> top seven vote winners as the JC for this term? I suppose we can
>>> be
>>> anarchists and live without a JC this term or solicit
>>> applications from
>>> people who were not nominated at convention.
>>> I don't have the top seven names handy, we would have to verify
>>> they
>>> have been members for four years.
>>> --
>>> Sam Goldstein
>>> Libertarian National Committee
>>> 317-850-0726 Cell
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> In Liberty,
>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)
>>> - [3]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>>> Communications Director, [4]Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>>> We defend your rights
>>> And oppose the use of force
>>> Taxation is theft
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> In Liberty,
>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)
>>> - [5]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>>> Communications Director, [6]Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>>> We defend your rights
>>> And oppose the use of force
>>> Taxation is theft
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>>> 2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 3. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 4. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>> 5. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 6. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> *In Liberty,*
> *Caryn Ann Harlos*
> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona,
> Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.
> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org>
> Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
> <http://www.lpcolorado.org/>
> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>
> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
> *We defend your rights*
> *And oppose the use of force*
> *Taxation is theft*
>
>
--
--
*In Liberty,*
*Caryn Ann Harlos*
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona,
Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org>
Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
<http://www.lpcolorado.org/>
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
*We defend your rights*
*And oppose the use of force*
*Taxation is theft*
-------------- next part --------------
===Caryn Ann, if it was wrong at the time, why didn't you protest? ===
I did.
===Why didn't a loud protest rise from the floor? It's not like the LP
delegate body is shy about raising a ruckus from the floor is they're
in disapproval.===
Sometimes it takes a bit to realize precisely what happened. People
ARE raising a ruckus now. From what I hear a pretty major ruckus is
going to come from Region 1.
=== Instead, they were in agreement to suspend the rules. I'm not
buying that the delegate body was so unaware that they were led.===
And I don't usually buy that juries are either, but yet they are.
=== These are people who spent several days doing the very thing you
now wish to disregard. (suspend rules and vote on it) ===
Not under the gun with only two options presented to them in an
existential crisis.
===I'm wondering what has prompted this sudden disavowal of the the
decision the delegate body made? ===
It's not sudden and you can wonder all you want. It is inappropriate.
I said it on the floor. I said it in informal discussions at the
meeting. I said it last year.
We interfered inappropriately and I am not going to sweep that under
the rug.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:59 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn
<[1]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
Caryn Ann, if it was wrong at the time, why didn't you protest? Why
didn't a loud protest rise from the floor? It's not like the LP
delegate body is shy about raising a ruckus from the floor is they're
in disapproval. Instead, they were in agreement to suspend the rules.
I'm not buying that the delegate body was so unaware that they were
led. These are people who spent several days doing the very thing you
now wish to disregard. (suspend rules and vote on it)
I'm wondering what has prompted this sudden disavowal of the the
decision the delegate body made?
---
Elizabeth Van Horn
LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
LP Social Media Process Review Committee
Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
[2]http://www.lpcaucus.org/
On 2018-07-05 19:54, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
And we typically trust juries of our peers but recognize that when they
are led to the desired decision to the exclusion of other options that
is not a matter of distrust but of undue influence.
What happened was wrong on many levels.
And the state chairs also have no particularly expertise in how to
improve our voting methods. Nor do they have the time. Many competent
tech persons have volunteered.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:51 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn
<[3]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
I think the same delegates that we trust to suspend rules on other
things, are able to make a decision, even if the clock is ticking.
These are the same people who sat through multiple days of rules,
motions, decisions, and voting. I'm not willing to discount their
ability to make decisions. I'll vote 'no' on tossing the decision
that the delegate body made. I'll vote 'no' if an attempt is made
to do mail-ballots, overriding the body of the delegates, who
already made a decision.
Regarding Joe Bishop-Henchman's proposal, I'd prefer to have the #4
in his proposal be state chairs. (Or, someone they designate from a
state affilate) As the delegates come from the state affiliates, and
the state chairs have a vested interest in ensuring future votes at
convention are handled well.
---
Elizabeth Van Horn
LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
LP Social Media Process Review Committee
Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
[4]http://www.lpcaucus.org/
On 2018-07-05 19:40, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
There are way more qualified people to serve on an exploratory
committee for voting etc, and it should be based on
qualifications not
factions and needs to be a lot larger. IF the Secretary is
involved it
should be as an ex-officio member. We have our hands in way too
many
pies, and we sure screwed this one up.
With the way the delegates were led to that decision - we put the
fix
on it. Unintentionally sure but that wayyyyyy too much
interference in
our own internal elections.
As a member I want At-Larges that were voted in by a majority as
is my
right. I think most members, if not forced into a faustian
bargain,
would feel the same.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
<[1][5]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
I will vote no if this comes up. There is always a next
convention.
We screwed this up last convention. Let the delegates decide.
And I will vote hell no to the last further resolved. The LNC
needs to
stay away from caucuses.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 5:32 PM, joe.bishop-henchman--- via
Lnc-business
<[2][6]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
I've been thinking about this since the night of the At-Large/JC
election and I do share Ms. Harlos's frustration. I had perhaps
100
delegates who were going to support me already leave by the time
we
got to the At-Large election. Complaining about how long balloting
and tabulation took is already the #1 feedback topic I'm getting
from Party members.
That said, I agree with Ms. Van Horn that the Convention did
perhaps
the least worst option under the circumstances. I worry that
anything we do that departs from that, be it putting our own
people
on or keeping the dead hand of the last JC or sending a mail
ballot
to all Party members or some rump thereof, is even more
disconnected
from the rules we should be following and destined to be viewed as
illegitimate and post-hoc.
I would like to fix it for next time, as I know many of you do.
Taking Mr. Goldstein's suggestion, I took a stab at tackling three
birds with one stone:
WHEREAS, the Libertarian National Convention on July 3, 2018 voted
that the top vote-getters in the At-Large race fill all available
At-Large seats on the LNC; and
WHEREAS, Rule 9 directs that the election of Judicial Committee
members be conducted as the same manner as specified for at-large
members of the National Committee; and
WHEREAS, LNC action pursuant to Bylaws Article 7, Section 7 would
clear all potential doubts as to who the new LNC members are;
THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that Joshua Smith, Bill Redpath, and
Alicia Mattson are added to the LNC as At-Large members for a
two-year term; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the LNC acknowledges the election of
D.
Frank Robinson, Chuck Moulton, Darryl Perry, Ruth Bennett, Geoff
Neale, Jim Turney, and Tricia Sprankle to the Judicial Committee
for
a four-year term; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a special committee be established to
present a consensus recommendation to the LNC by September 1, 2019
for improving the election scheduling, balloting, and tabulation
process of LNC elections, with said committee to consist of:
(1) the Party Vice-Chair, who will act as chairperson
(2) the Party Secretary
(3) a designee of the Bylaws & Rules Committee
(4) four Party members appointed by the Party Chair, from among
the
various caucuses in the Party.
JBH
On 2018-07-05 18:04, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business wrote:
Since we apparently closed the convention without a procedure for
populating the JC, is anyone in the mood for a motion to
appoint
the
top seven vote winners as the JC for this term? I suppose we
can
be
anarchists and live without a JC this term or solicit
applications from
people who were not nominated at convention.
I don't have the top seven names handy, we would have to verify
they
have been members for four years.
--
Sam Goldstein
Libertarian National Committee
317-850-0726 Cell
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
Washington)
- [3]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [4]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
Washington)
- [5]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [6]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:[7]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
2. mailto:[8]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
3. mailto:[9]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
4. [10]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
5. mailto:[11]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
6. [12]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)
- [13]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [14]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)
- [15]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [16]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
2. http://www.lpcaucus.org/
3. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
4. http://www.lpcaucus.org/
5. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
6. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
7. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
8. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
9. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
10. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
11. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
12. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
13. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
14. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
15. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
16. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
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