[Lnc-business] Judicial committee
Caryn Ann Harlos
caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
Thu Jul 5 21:05:43 EDT 2018
It was presented to the delegates as:
a. you say the top five
b. you let the LNC do so and they shouldn't be trusted
It was the horns of a false dilemma and they were spoon-fed the path to
go. To me that is interfering in our own internal elections and
inappropriate. If this was the first time, well okay. For me it is the
second time and I am hearing that it has been multiple times.
It is time for this to not be swept under the rug with a patch.
I have not made a choice when I am told I have to pick between two bad
choices when there were other options if given some time to hash out.
Hell we could have done a run off standing vote between some of them.
These were so close that they do not represent at all what our rules
intended.
It's not right. And I am not going to pretend like it is.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:52 PM, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> I'm pretty sure Alicia keeps all the paper ballots along with the state
> tally sheets from each convention. Give her a day or two
> to rest up!
>
> ---
> Sam Goldstein
> Libertarian National Committee
> 317-850-0726 Cell
>
>
> On 2018-07-05 20:44, Craig Bowden via Lnc-business wrote:
>
>> I have one delegation in Region 1 right now that is not happy about
>> the At Large situation, and is requesting an audit of the vote.
>> Specifically the state by state break down, as is afforded on all
>> other election results, but no delegation was able to review the
>> results to ensure accuracy. There is further concern that there was no
>> preservation of the original ballots from the delegations.
>>
>> I can tell you this much: had I known what was going on, I would have
>> raised these concerns on the floor. Unfortunately, I had to credential
>> out because I had to get on a flight back to Utah for July 4th as my
>> campaign had multiple outreach events. Many delegates also were
>> candidates that had to leave for similar reasons.
>>
>> We cannot rush through this as if it is an afterthought. Especially if
>> there ended up being a need for the JC to rule on an issue.
>>
>> Craig Bowden
>> Region 1 Alternate
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2018-07-05 18:30, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
>>
>>> As this is an LNC created committee, I think that committee creation by
>>> larger unrelated bodies is a recipe for disaster. As a group we can
>>> pick applicants who fill in needed holes and knowledge. I am not
>>> thinking 50 person. I am thinking 9, 11, or 13. It is a big issue.
>>> I think some LNC members should be ex officio advisory members only.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn
>>> <[1]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Caryn Ann, I was thinking state chairs or people they appoint.
>>> Which could be some of the people you're thinking might be good.
>>> A 50 person committee would be too large (someone from each state
>>> affiliate), but Regions could send one or two people. Eight regions
>>> and two from each, so maybe 16 people. (Or, could be smaller)
>>> They could work on "improving the election scheduling, balloting,
>>> and tabulation process", and report sometime in 2019 to see what
>>> improvements could be made.
>>> ---
>>> Elizabeth Van Horn
>>> LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
>>> Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
>>> LP Social Media Process Review Committee
>>> Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
>>> [2]http://www.lpcaucus.org/
>>> On 2018-07-05 20:12, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
>>>
>>> It needs a much larger and more diverse committee that doesn't have
>>> the
>>> LNC's thumb on it like every other committee. Many many many
>>> qualified
>>> people offered, including former LNC people who have been to this
>>> rodeo.
>>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:06 PM, joe.bishop-henchman--- via
>>> Lnc-business
>>> <[1][3]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> Good questions. My answers would be that the only way this
>>> works is
>>> if everyone feels like they have a seat at the table. Timing
>>> wise,
>>> this gives them time to collect ideas and feedback while giving
>>> us
>>> time to address it if they can't come up with a consensus
>>> recommendation.
>>> It's also more than just technology - it's also whether we do
>>> plurality or IRV or approval, it's whether we do combined
>>> ballots or
>>> all separate, it's whether we need three days or four or five.
>>> There's off-the-shelf electronic voting things we can rent -
>>> I've
>>> done elections with them before - but I think our Party members
>>> would without buy-in reject them as centralized and potentially
>>> not
>>> secure. The solution may just be some new bylaws changes and
>>> more
>>> tellers and computers, and no new technology. I'm not sure.
>>> JBH
>>> On 2018-07-05 19:56, john.phillips--- via Lnc-business wrote:
>>> Why start a new committee? Shouldn't this fall under the
>>> purview of
>>> IT?
>>> John Phillips
>>> Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
>>> Cell [1]217-412-5973
>>> ------ Original message------
>>> From: [2]joe.bishop-henchman--- via Lnc-business
>>> Date: Thu, Jul 5, 2018 6:32 PM
>>>
>>> To: [3][2][4]lnc-business at hq.lp.org;
>>> Cc: [4][3][5]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org;
>>> Subject:Re: [Lnc-business] Judicial committee
>>> I've been thinking about this since the night of the At-Large/JC
>>> election and I do share Ms. Harlos's frustration. I had perhaps
>>> 100
>>> delegates who were going to support me already leave by the time
>>> we
>>> got
>>> to the At-Large election. Complaining about how long balloting
>>> and
>>> tabulation took is already the #1 feedback topic I'm getting from
>>> Party
>>> members.
>>> That said, I agree with Ms. Van Horn that the Convention did
>>> perhaps
>>> the
>>> least worst option under the circumstances. I worry that anything
>>> we
>>> do
>>> that departs from that, be it putting our own people on or
>>> keeping
>>> the
>>> dead hand of the last JC or sending a mail ballot to all Party
>>> members
>>> or some rump thereof, is even more disconnected from the rules we
>>> should
>>> be following and destined to be viewed as illegitimate and
>>> post-hoc.
>>> I would like to fix it for next time, as I know many of you do.
>>> Taking
>>> Mr. Goldstein's suggestion, I took a stab at tackling three birds
>>> with
>>> one stone:
>>> WHEREAS, the Libertarian National Convention on July 3, 2018
>>> voted
>>> that
>>> the top vote-getters in the At-Large race fill all available
>>> At-Large
>>> seats on the LNC; and
>>> WHEREAS, Rule 9 directs that the election of Judicial Committee
>>> members
>>> be conducted as the same manner as specified for at-large members
>>> of
>>> the
>>> National Committee; and
>>> WHEREAS, LNC action pursuant to Bylaws Article 7, Section 7 would
>>> clear
>>> all potential doubts as to who the new LNC members are;
>>> THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that Joshua Smith, Bill Redpath, and
>>> Alicia
>>> Mattson are added to the LNC as At-Large members for a two-year
>>> term;
>>> and
>>> BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the LNC acknowledges the election of
>>> D.
>>> Frank Robinson, Chuck Moulton, Darryl Perry, Ruth Bennett, Geoff
>>> Neale,
>>> Jim Turney, and Tricia Sprankle to the Judicial Committee for a
>>> four-year term; and
>>> BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a special committee be established to
>>> present a consensus recommendation to the LNC by September 1,
>>> 2019
>>> for
>>> improving the election scheduling, balloting, and tabulation
>>> process
>>> of
>>> LNC elections, with said committee to consist of:
>>> (1) the Party Vice-Chair, who will act as chairperson
>>> (2) the Party Secretary
>>> (3) a designee of the Bylaws & Rules Committee
>>> (4) four Party members appointed by the Party Chair, from among
>>> the
>>> various caucuses in the Party.
>>> JBH
>>> On [5]2018-07-05 18:04, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business wrote:
>>> Since we apparently closed the convention without a procedure for
>>> populating the JC, is anyone in the mood for a motion to
>>> appoint
>>> the
>>> top seven vote winners as the JC for this term? I suppose we
>>> can
>>> be
>>> anarchists and live without a JC this term or solicit
>>> applications
>>> from
>>> people who were not nominated at convention.
>>> I don't have the top seven names handy, we would have to
>>> verify
>>> they
>>> have been members for four years.
>>> --
>>> Sam Goldstein
>>> Libertarian National Committee
>>> [6]317-850-0726 Cell
>>> References
>>> 1. tel:217-412-5973
>>>
>>> 2. [4][6]http://joe.bi/
>>> 3. mailto:[5][7]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 4. mailto:[6][8]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>>> 5. tel:2018-07-05 18
>>> 6. tel:317-850-0726
>>> --
>>> --
>>> In Liberty,
>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
>>> Washington)
>>> - [7]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>>> Communications Director, [8]Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>>> We defend your rights
>>> And oppose the use of force
>>> Taxation is theft
>>> References
>>> 1. mailto:[9]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 2. mailto:[10]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 3. mailto:[11]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>>> 4. [12]http://joe.bi/
>>> 5. mailto:[13]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 6. mailto:[14]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>>> 7. mailto:[15]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 8. [16]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> In Liberty,
>>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>>> Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
>>> Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)
>>> - [17]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>>> Communications Director, [18]Libertarian Party of Colorado
>>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>>> We defend your rights
>>> And oppose the use of force
>>> Taxation is theft
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>>> 2. http://www.lpcaucus.org/
>>> 3. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 4. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 5. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>>> 6. http://joe.bi/
>>> 7. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 8. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>>> 9. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 10. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 11. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>>> 12. http://joe.bi/
>>> 13. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>>> 14. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>>> 15. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 16. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>> 17. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>> 18. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>>>
>>
--
--
*In Liberty,*
*Caryn Ann Harlos*
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona,
Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org>
Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado
<http://www.lpcolorado.org/>
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
*We defend your rights*
*And oppose the use of force*
*Taxation is theft*
-------------- next part --------------
It was presented to the delegates as:
a. you say the top five
b. you let the LNC do so and they shouldn't be trusted
It was the horns of a false dilemma and they were spoon-fed the path to
go. To me that is interfering in our own internal elections and
inappropriate. If this was the first time, well okay. For me it is the
second time and I am hearing that it has been multiple times.
It is time for this to not be swept under the rug with a patch.
I have not made a choice when I am told I have to pick between two bad
choices when there were other options if given some time to hash out.
Hell we could have done a run off standing vote between some of
them. These were so close that they do not represent at all what our
rules intended.
It's not right. And I am not going to pretend like it is.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:52 PM, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business
<[1]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
I'm pretty sure Alicia keeps all the paper ballots along with the
state tally sheets from each convention. Give her a day or two
to rest up!
---
Sam Goldstein
Libertarian National Committee
317-850-0726 Cell
On 2018-07-05 20:44, Craig Bowden via Lnc-business wrote:
I have one delegation in Region 1 right now that is not happy about
the At Large situation, and is requesting an audit of the vote.
Specifically the state by state break down, as is afforded on all
other election results, but no delegation was able to review the
results to ensure accuracy. There is further concern that there was
no
preservation of the original ballots from the delegations.
I can tell you this much: had I known what was going on, I would
have
raised these concerns on the floor. Unfortunately, I had to
credential
out because I had to get on a flight back to Utah for July 4th as my
campaign had multiple outreach events. Many delegates also were
candidates that had to leave for similar reasons.
We cannot rush through this as if it is an afterthought. Especially
if
there ended up being a need for the JC to rule on an issue.
Craig Bowden
Region 1 Alternate
On 2018-07-05 18:30, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
As this is an LNC created committee, I think that committee creation
by
larger unrelated bodies is a recipe for disaster. As a group we
can
pick applicants who fill in needed holes and knowledge. I am not
thinking 50 person. I am thinking 9, 11, or 13. It is a big
issue.
I think some LNC members should be ex officio advisory members
only.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Elizabeth Van Horn
<[1][2]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
Caryn Ann, I was thinking state chairs or people they appoint.
Which could be some of the people you're thinking might be
good.
A 50 person committee would be too large (someone from each
state
affiliate), but Regions could send one or two people. Eight
regions
and two from each, so maybe 16 people. (Or, could be smaller)
They could work on "improving the election scheduling,
balloting,
and tabulation process", and report sometime in 2019 to see
what
improvements could be made.
---
Elizabeth Van Horn
LNC Region 3 (IN, MI, OH, KY)
Secretary Libertarian Party of Madison Co, Indiana
LP Social Media Process Review Committee
Vice-Chair Libertarian Pragmatist Caucus
[2][3]http://www.lpcaucus.org/
On 2018-07-05 20:12, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
It needs a much larger and more diverse committee that doesn't
have
the
LNC's thumb on it like every other committee. Many many
many
qualified
people offered, including former LNC people who have been to
this
rodeo.
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:06 PM, joe.bishop-henchman--- via
Lnc-business
<[1][3][4]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
Good questions. My answers would be that the only way this
works is
if everyone feels like they have a seat at the table.
Timing
wise,
this gives them time to collect ideas and feedback while
giving
us
time to address it if they can't come up with a consensus
recommendation.
It's also more than just technology - it's also whether we
do
plurality or IRV or approval, it's whether we do combined
ballots or
all separate, it's whether we need three days or four or
five.
There's off-the-shelf electronic voting things we can rent
-
I've
done elections with them before - but I think our Party
members
would without buy-in reject them as centralized and
potentially
not
secure. The solution may just be some new bylaws changes
and
more
tellers and computers, and no new technology. I'm not
sure.
JBH
On 2018-07-05 19:56, john.phillips--- via Lnc-business
wrote:
Why start a new committee? Shouldn't this fall under the
purview of
IT?
John Phillips
Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
Cell [1]217-412-5973
------ Original message------
From: [2]joe.bishop-henchman--- via Lnc-business
Date: Thu, Jul 5, 2018 6:32 PM
To: [3][2][4][5]lnc-business at hq.lp.org;
Cc: [4][3][5][6]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org;
Subject:Re: [Lnc-business] Judicial committee
I've been thinking about this since the night of the
At-Large/JC
election and I do share Ms. Harlos's frustration. I had
perhaps
100
delegates who were going to support me already leave by the
time
we
got
to the At-Large election. Complaining about how long
balloting and
tabulation took is already the #1 feedback topic I'm getting
from
Party
members.
That said, I agree with Ms. Van Horn that the Convention did
perhaps
the
least worst option under the circumstances. I worry that
anything
we
do
that departs from that, be it putting our own people on or
keeping
the
dead hand of the last JC or sending a mail ballot to all
Party
members
or some rump thereof, is even more disconnected from the
rules we
should
be following and destined to be viewed as illegitimate and
post-hoc.
I would like to fix it for next time, as I know many of you
do.
Taking
Mr. Goldstein's suggestion, I took a stab at tackling three
birds
with
one stone:
WHEREAS, the Libertarian National Convention on July 3, 2018
voted
that
the top vote-getters in the At-Large race fill all available
At-Large
seats on the LNC; and
WHEREAS, Rule 9 directs that the election of Judicial
Committee
members
be conducted as the same manner as specified for at-large
members
of
the
National Committee; and
WHEREAS, LNC action pursuant to Bylaws Article 7, Section 7
would
clear
all potential doubts as to who the new LNC members are;
THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that Joshua Smith, Bill Redpath,
and
Alicia
Mattson are added to the LNC as At-Large members for a
two-year
term;
and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the LNC acknowledges the
election of
D.
Frank Robinson, Chuck Moulton, Darryl Perry, Ruth Bennett,
Geoff
Neale,
Jim Turney, and Tricia Sprankle to the Judicial Committee
for a
four-year term; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a special committee be
established to
present a consensus recommendation to the LNC by September
1, 2019
for
improving the election scheduling, balloting, and tabulation
process
of
LNC elections, with said committee to consist of:
(1) the Party Vice-Chair, who will act as chairperson
(2) the Party Secretary
(3) a designee of the Bylaws & Rules Committee
(4) four Party members appointed by the Party Chair, from
among
the
various caucuses in the Party.
JBH
On [5]2018-07-05 18:04, Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business
wrote:
Since we apparently closed the convention without a
procedure for
populating the JC, is anyone in the mood for a motion to
appoint
the
top seven vote winners as the JC for this term? I
suppose we
can
be
anarchists and live without a JC this term or solicit
applications
from
people who were not nominated at convention.
I don't have the top seven names handy, we would have to
verify
they
have been members for four years.
--
Sam Goldstein
Libertarian National Committee
[6]317-850-0726 Cell
References
1. tel:217-412-5973
2. [4][6][7]http://joe.bi/
3. mailto:[5][7][8]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
4. mailto:[6][8][9]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
5. tel:2018-07-05 18
6. tel:317-850-0726
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee
(Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
Washington)
- [7]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [8]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:[9][10]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
2. mailto:[10][11]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
3. mailto:[11][12]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
4. [12][13]http://joe.bi/
5. mailto:[13][14]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
6. mailto:[14][15]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
7. mailto:[15]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
8. [16][16]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming,
Washington)
- [17]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [18]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:[17]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
2. [18]http://www.lpcaucus.org/
3. mailto:[19]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
4. mailto:[20]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
5. mailto:[21]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
6. [22]http://joe.bi/
7. mailto:[23]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
8. mailto:[24]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
9. mailto:[25]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
10. mailto:[26]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
11. mailto:[27]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
12. [28]http://joe.bi/
13. mailto:[29]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
14. mailto:[30]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
15. mailto:[31]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
16. [32]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
17. mailto:[33]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
18. [34]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska,
Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington)
- [35]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
Communications Director, [36]Libertarian Party of Colorado
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
2. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
3. http://www.lpcaucus.org/
4. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
5. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
6. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
7. http://joe.bi/
8. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
9. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
10. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
11. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
12. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
13. http://joe.bi/
14. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
15. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
16. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
17. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
18. http://www.lpcaucus.org/
19. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
20. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
21. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
22. http://joe.bi/
23. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
24. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
25. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
26. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
27. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
28. http://joe.bi/
29. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
30. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
31. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
32. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
33. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
34. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
35. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
36. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
More information about the Lnc-business
mailing list