[Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2018-11: ACKNOWLEDGE ELECTION OF JC
John Phillips
john.phillips at lp.org
Mon Jul 9 20:52:14 EDT 2018
Agreed, to a point. At some time, preaching to the choir becomes
counter productive. As noted earlier, we are all aware that it sucked,
and is a bad situation with no easy fix that will make everyone happy
immediately. We all want to fix it, and fix it yesterday. I even agree
with all of Caryn Ann's points, and yours. Bring it up once a week.
Absolutely. Don't bring it up 5 times a day. Stopping multiple times to
read the same arguments takes away time from working on fixing it, and
promoting the party in other ways. I love the passion, I really do, but
beating us up continually on a point we 90% or more agree on IS
counterproductive. Let's move on and FIX IT.
Don't shut up, but let's be productive, let's not let this crap happen
again.
John Phillips
Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
Cell 217-412-5973
On 7/9/2018 7:39 PM, Craig Bowden via Lnc-business wrote:
> Looking out for the membership and delegates is nothing to be quiet
> about. I personally hope it is brought up at least once a week until
> solutions are in place to prevent it from ever happening again.
>
> Respectfully,
> Craig Bowden
> Region 1 Alternate
>
> On 2018-07-09 18:33, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
>> I respectfully decline.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Sam Goldstein
>> <[1]sam.goldstein at lp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Caryn Ann,
>> Just shut up about this already!
>> Respectfully,
>> ---
>> Sam Goldstein
>> Libertarian National Committee
>> 317-850-0726 Cell
>>
>> On 2018-07-09 18:34, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
>>
>> PS: Before this vote ends, I am going to put something together
>> to try
>> to convince you that this is actually one of the worst ways to
>> solve.
>> My first issue - that of steering the delegates down that road
>> with
>> at-large is unsolvable- at least unsolvable in any way that we
>> would
>> ever do. If it were up to me, I would punt it all back to the
>> delegates.
>> The second issue - of how to handle this situation with the JC -
>> well
>> we are trying to solve it now and I think we are solving it wrong
>> both
>> ethically and procedurally.
>> And a remaining issue - is one where me and RONR come into
>> conflict.
>> Rules are tools. Just because a rule allows something doesn't
>> mean
>> it
>> is right, and this is probably why the first issue is sticking
>> in my
>> craw so badly. It is fundamentally NOT RIGHT to change the
>> rules of
>> an
>> election mid-way. There is a huge difference between majority and
>> plurality and our candidates deserve to know as it effects the way
>> they
>> campaign. We treated them and their efforts as pawns, and it
>> isn't
>> right.
>> I know some of you are thinking, just shut up about this already.
>> Well, I am a hard-nose on some things, and this is one of them.
>> Just
>> like it was with the eternal secrecy clause last term.
>> The only way we are going to learn as an organization is if
>> this is
>> a
>> bit painful. And in so doing we will model over-the-top integrity
>> to
>> our members rather than political expediency.
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos
>>
>> <[1][2]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>> ==I get the anger. I'm angry. When we ultimately do get the
>> state-by-state tallies, I'm sure we'll find that hundreds of
>> delegates
>> didn't even vote in the two races because we put them off so long.
>> In
>> the 2016 convention, whole states didn't cast votes in the
>> At-Large
>> and
>> JC races. Them's the rules - elections are won by those who
>> stay and
>> vote - but oh my did we make it hard. The combination of voting
>> methodology, tabulation method, and scheduling left us in a bad
>> place.===
>> You mean we ran in front of a racing car and now are surprised we
>> got
>> ran over?
>> But it is more than that. The delegates were led to make a
>> decision
>> in
>> a certain direction. There WERE other options. Whether or not
>> one
>> agrees with the voting methodology, it is the methodology and its
>> intent was to use approval voting to show approval and we
>> turned it
>> on
>> its head. Why weren't the delegates given other options?
>> ==All that said, I don't want to just be angry and complain. As
>> far
>> as
>> actions that can be taken, this resolution is the most reasonable.
>> Other possibilities - revotes or mail votes of all Party
>> members or
>> us
>> filling the JC seats or setting multiple JCs in motion - are even
>> more
>> violative of the Bylaws and Rules.==
>> Are they all? I don't think so. And I do think my very real
>> complaint
>> of how the delegates were steered in a certain direction is being
>> ignored at best (or maligned at worst).
>> ==The contrary view admittedly rests on a thread of legality: the
>> delegates expressed their wish to take the top at-large candidates
>> and
>> the Bylaws say the same applies for the JC. There's also no
>> doubt in
>> my
>> mind that had they been asked they would have done the same for
>> the
>> JC.
>> A room of several hundred Libertarians were not coerced into doing
>> that
>> - they went with what Nick suggested because that's what they
>> wanted
>> to
>> do. He just told them how.===
>> And that is where the dispute is. Most of the people there
>> trusted
>> us
>> (I use us as Nick was acting as the spokesperson of the LNC and
>> this
>> isn't about Nick ultimately) not to tell them what they wanted.
>> They
>> were presented with two choices in which they were led down a
>> particular path. You are an attorney Joe, you know exactly what I
>> am
>> getting at here.
>> Do you really think that if they were offered a majority rising
>> vote
>> on
>> the spot to choose between options they would not have taken that?
>> It
>> never ocurred to most of them that there WERE any other
>> options. It
>> didn't immediately occur to me and I am well-versed in this stuff.
>> It
>> stinks. If a government acted this way we would be all
>> lathered up.
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 3:16 PM, Joe Bishop-Henchman
>>
>> <[2][3]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org> wrote:
>> I get the anger. I'm angry. When we ultimately do get the
>> state-by-state tallies, I'm sure we'll find that hundreds of
>> delegates didn't even vote in the two races because we put them
>> off
>> so long. In the 2016 convention, whole states didn't cast
>> votes in
>> the At-Large and JC races. Them's the rules - elections are
>> won by
>> those who stay and vote - but oh my did we make it hard. The
>> combination of voting methodology, tabulation method, and
>> scheduling
>> left us in a bad place.
>> All that said, I don't want to just be angry and complain. As
>> far
>> as
>> actions that can be taken, this resolution is the most
>> reasonable.
>> Other possibilities - revotes or mail votes of all Party members
>> or
>> us filling the JC seats or setting multiple JCs in motion - are
>> even
>> more violative of the Bylaws and Rules.
>> I do not dispute that one can reasonably argue that every JC
>> candidate was disapproved and that it should sit empty until
>> 2022.
>> The contrary view admittedly rests on a thread of legality: the
>> delegates expressed their wish to take the top at-large
>> candidates
>> and the Bylaws say the same applies for the JC. There's also no
>> doubt in my mind that had they been asked they would have
>> done the
>> same for the JC. A room of several hundred Libertarians were not
>> coerced into doing that - they went with what Nick suggested
>> because
>> that's what they wanted to do. He just told them how. They
>> didn't
>> want the LNC fighting over who would fill the seats if they were
>> left vacant.
>> I doubt I'm going to convince you but I did want to write
>> this to
>> emphasize that at least I am not sanguine or sweeping anything
>> blithely under the rug. I expect rethinking how we do elections
>> will
>> be a big priority for many of us.
>> JBH
>> On 2018-07-09 16:46, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
>> Suspension of the rules has to be specific and there is no way
>> around
>> the fact that we used the number 5 over and over.
>> This is taking things to an even deeper level of improper. I
>> object to
>> the whole at-Large process- I don’t think the delegates
>> made an
>> independent choice and now to just infer this upon that is
>> two
>> bridges
>> too far.
>> This is a big screwup and I won’t be part of sweeping it
>> under
>> the rug.
>> It alarms me to no end how blithely the whole situation is
>> being
>> taken.
>> There are people looking at us and seeing nothing different
>> than
>> the
>> government we wish to reform.
>> There was a controversial election and at least one state
>> chair
>> and
>> candidate has been asking for the state by state rallies with
>> no
>> time
>> frame given him.
>> The whole thing was an affront to people expecting an
>> entirely
>> different thing when they ran. I will not be sanguine about
>> it.
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 2:20 PM Whitney Bilyeu
>>
>> <[1][3][4]whitney.bilyeu at lp.org> wrote:
>> This point did come up immediately after adjournment, while
>> Nick
>> was
>> still at the mic. I don't recall who brought it up, but the
>> statement
>> was made that it would follow the same procedure as
>> At-Large
>> at
>> that
>> point, since we were no longer in session.
>> No one raised the question prior to that.
>> Whitney Bilyeu
>> Region 7 Representative
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 3:07 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via
>> Lnc-business
>> <[2][4][5]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> Joshua they were not given a choice on this. The JC
>> never
>> came
>> up.
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:47 AM
>> <[1][3][5][6]joshua.smith at lp.org>
>>
>> wrote:
>> I vote yes. Given that the delegates were given the
>> choice
>> at
>> convention
>> just a few short days ago, I believe we should respect
>> that
>> decision.
>> Thanks,
>> Joshua D. Smith
>> On 2018-07-07 22:23, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
>> wrote:
>> > We have an electronic mail ballot. Votes are due to
>> the
>> LNC-Business
>> > list by July 14, 2018 at 11:59:59pm Pacific time.
>> Co-Sponsors:
>> > Bishop-Henchman, Goldstein, Hagan, Merced, Van Horn
>> Motion:
>> Move
>> > that
>> > the Libertarian National Committee acknowledge the
>> election of
>> the
>> > following to the Judicial Committee for a four-year
>> term:
>> D.
>> Frank
>> > Robinson, Chuck Moulton, Darryl Perry, Ruth
>> Bennett,
>> Geoff
>> Neale,
>> > Jim
>> > Turney, and Tricia Sprankle. You can keep track of
>> the
>> Secretary's
>> > manual tally of votes here:
>>
>> [1][2][4][6][7]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> > --
>> > --
>> > In Liberty,
>> > Caryn Ann Harlos
>> > Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National
>> Committee
>> (Alaska,
>> > Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana,
>> Utah,
>> Wyoming,
>> > Washington)
>> > - [2]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org
>> > Communications Director, [3]Libertarian
>> Party of
>> Colorado
>> > Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee
>> > A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>> > We defend your rights
>> > And oppose the use of force
>> > Taxation is theft
>> >
>> > References
>> >
>> > 1. [3][5][7][8]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> > 2. mailto:[4]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> > 3. [5][6][8][9]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> --
>> --
>> In Liberty,
>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>> Secretary
>> - [6]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -
>> LPedia at LP.org
>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>> We defend your rights
>> And oppose the use of force
>> Taxation is theft
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[7][9][10]joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 2. [8][10][11]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 3. [9][11][12]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 4. mailto:[10]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 5. [11][12][13]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 6. mailto:[12]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> --
>> --
>> In Liberty,
>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>> Secretary
>> - [13]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>> We defend your rights
>> And oppose the use of force
>> Taxation is theft
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[13][14]whitney.bilyeu at lp.org
>> 2. mailto:[14][15]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 3. mailto:[15][16]joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 4. [16][17]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 5. [17][18]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 6. [18][19]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 7. mailto:[19][20]joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 8. [20][21]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 9. [21][22]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 10. mailto:[22]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 11. [23][23]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 12. mailto:[24]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 13. mailto:[25]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> --
>> JBH
>> ------------
>> Joe Bishop-Henchman
>> LNC Member (At-Large)
>> [26][24]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> [27][25]www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837
>> --
>> --
>> In Liberty,
>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
>> - [28]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>> We defend your rights
>> And oppose the use of force
>> Taxation is theft
>> --
>> --
>> In Liberty,
>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
>> - [29]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>> We defend your rights
>> And oppose the use of force
>> Taxation is theft
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[26]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>> 2. mailto:[27]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> 3. mailto:[28]whitney.bilyeu at lp.org
>> 4. mailto:[29]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 5. mailto:[30]joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 6. [31]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 7. [32]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 8. [33]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 9. mailto:[34]joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 10. [35]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 11. [36]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 12. [37]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 13. mailto:[38]whitney.bilyeu at lp.org
>> 14. mailto:[39]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 15. mailto:[40]joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 16. [41]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 17. [42]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 18. [43]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 19. mailto:[44]joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 20. [45]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 21. [46]https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 22. mailto:[47]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 23. [48]http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 24. mailto:[49]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 25. mailto:[50]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 26. mailto:[51]joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> 27. [52]http://www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837
>> 28. mailto:[53]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 29. mailto:[54]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>>
>> --
>> --
>> In Liberty,
>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
>> - [55]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>> We defend your rights
>> And oppose the use of force
>> Taxation is theft
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:sam.goldstein at lp.org
>> 2. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>> 3. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> 4. mailto:whitney.bilyeu at lp.org
>> 5. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 6. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 7. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 8. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 9. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 10. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 11. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 12. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 13. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 14. mailto:whitney.bilyeu at lp.org
>> 15. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 16. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 17. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 18. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 19. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 20. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 21. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 22. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 23. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 24. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> 25. http://www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837
>> 26. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>> 27. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> 28. mailto:whitney.bilyeu at lp.org
>> 29. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 30. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 31. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 32. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 33. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 34. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 35. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 36. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 37. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 38. mailto:whitney.bilyeu at lp.org
>> 39. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> 40. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 41. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 42. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 43. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 44. mailto:joshua.smith at lp.org
>> 45. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 46. https://tinyurl.com/lncvoting
>> 47. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 48. http://www.lpcolorado.org/
>> 49. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 50. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 51. mailto:joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> 52. http://www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837
>> 53. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 54. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> 55. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>
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