[Lnc-business] Agenda in Phoenix

Elizabeth Van Horn elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
Sat Jul 21 06:17:27 EDT 2018


What matters is what actually happened at convention, and how the 
national LP has bylaws and rules in place, which spells out the results 
of what happened.

A self-appointed JC will have no authority. I doubt *that's* what the 
delegates intended either, but that's what they'll get if the LNC and 
LPHQ staff accept the self-proclaimed JC.


---
Elizabeth Van Horn



On 2018-07-21 04:56, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> If the JC sends me amended appellate rules I will direct the staff to
>    post them absent a contrary directive from the Chair or a contrary
>    motion from the LNC.
>    There is no way the delegates intended to leave themselves without a
>    watchdog.  This is a matter of member rights and when I was regional 
> I
>    clearly told my Region that there was a big BUT to my 
> representation.
>    I would never advocate against my own principles (not merely 
> opinion)
>    or removing member rights.
>    -Caryn Ann
>    On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 1:20 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business
>    <[1]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> 
>         JP>  On a personal note. Are we not Libertarians?  I find the
>      arguments
>         of rules and legality disturbingly dogmatic.  We argue all the
>      time
>         about changing bad laws and rules that have created a problem,
>      but when
>         it comes down to our rules failing we can't adjust? Seems sort 
> of
>         hypocritical to me, actually far more than sort of.
>         I don't understand how some Libertarians want to tell society
>      that many
>         things will work much better managed by voluntary agreements
>      rather
>         than by government, but then don't care about the terms of the
>         voluntary agreement that is our organizational rules.  If we
>      won't
>         follow our own agreements, that feels hypocritical to me, and 
> it
>      sets a
>         poor example for the product we're trying to sell.
>         -Alicia
>         On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:26 AM, john.phillips--- via
>      Lnc-business
>         <[1][2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>              Shrug.  If I wanted to take it to a court of law I would
>      have a
>           50/50
>              shot imho, and that of the 8 lawyers I asked to look at 
> it.
>      Some
>           of
>              them thought they could win maybe 70%.
>              So i would say the argument for them being the JC is as 
> good
>      as
>           the
>              argument against.
>              However, the vast majority seem to want them from what I
>      see, so
>           I fail
>              to see the issue that people keep making of this. Just
>      accept it
>           and
>              move on, it is what we should have done from the 
> beginning.
>              On a personal note. Are we not Libertarians?  I find the
>           arguments of
>              rules and legality disturbingly dogmatic.  We argue all 
> the
>      time
>           about
>              changing bad laws and rules that have created a problem, 
> but
>      when
>           it
>              comes down to our rules failing we can't adjust? Seems 
> sort
>      of
>              hypocritical to me, actually far more than sort of.
>              So my stance is this.  I stand opposed to anything that
>      continues
>           to
>              drag this out.  I stand opposed to anything other than
>      accepting
>           the
>              recommendation of the previous JC and what appears to me 
> to
>      be
>           the will
>              of vast majority of our constituents.  The correct route 
> in
>      my
>           not so
>              humble opinion is that we accept them, get the hell out of
>      the
>           way,
>              move on, and hope we don't need them like the last LNC
>      didn't.
>              John Phillips
>              Libertarian National Committee Region 6 Representative
>              Cell [1]217-412-5973
>              ------ Original message------
>              From: Elizabeth Van Horn via Lnc-business
>              Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2018 11:32 AM
>              To: Caryn Ann Harlos;
>              Cc: Elizabeth Van Horn[2];[2][3]lnc-business at hq.lp.org;
>              Subject:Re: [Lnc-business] Agenda in Phoenix
>           They can disagree all they want.   But, there's no authority
>      for
>           them.
>           ---
>           Elizabeth Van Horn
>           On [3]2018-07-20 11:08, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
>           > There's a JC presently electing its chair that disagrees.
>           >
>           > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 8:24 AM Elizabeth Van Horn  wrote:
>           >
>           >> There's no JC, so no resolution can be made.
>           >>
>           >> ---
>           >> Elizabeth Van Horn
>           >>
>           >> On [4]2018-07-20 08:58, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
>      wrote:
>           >>> It seems that the JC took it upon itself to resolve - it 
> is
>      up
>           to the
>           >>> membership to complain about that if they wish.  I submit
>      we
>           simply
>           >>> go
>           >>> on about our jobs and stay out of it.
>           >>> -Caryn Ann
>           >>>
>           >>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Richard Longstreth via
>           Lnc-business
>         >>> <[1[5]][3][4]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>         >>>
>         >>> I am assuming that JC will be an agenda item in Phoenix. If
>         >>> not,
>         >>> could
>         >>> we please add it? If not, are we done with that discussion
>      and
>         >>> simply
>         >>> not having a JC or what are the next points of discussion? 
> I
>         >>> want
>         >>> to
>         >>> fully resolve this issue the best we can and move forward. 
> I
>         >>> abstained
>         >>> last vote to approve but my mind is still not settled.
>         >>> There is no good solution here, but one of may state chairs
>      put
>         >>> very
>         >>> simply:
>         >>> "I find this whole debacle with process to be detrimental 
> and
>         >>> don't
>         >>> really care one way or the other how it pans out. Nobody is
>         >>> going
>         >>> to be
>         >>> 100% on this as is evidenced by the gridlock on some of the
>         >>> first
>         >>> true
>         >>> membership affecting votes from the LNC."
>         >>> We need to resolve and move forward.
>         >>> Richard
>         >>> --
>         >>> Richard Longstreth
>         >>> Region 1 Representative (AK, AZ, CO, KS, MT, NM, OR, HI, 
> UT,
>         >>> WA,
>         >>> WY)
>         >>> Libertarian National Committee
>           >>> [1][2[6]][4][5]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>           >>> [7]931.538.9300
>           >>> References
>           >>> 1. mailto:[3[8]][5][6]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>           >>>
>           >>> --
>           >>> --
>           >>> In Liberty,
>           >>> Caryn Ann Harlos
>           >>> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>      Secretary
>           >>> - [4][9]Caryn.Ann.[10] Harlos at LP.org or[11]
>      Secretary at LP.org.
>           >>> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -[12]
>      LPedia at LP.org
>           >>> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>           >>> We defend your rights
>           >>> And oppose the use of force
>           >>> Taxation is theft
>           >>>
>           >>> References
>           >>>
>           >>> 1. mailto[13]:[6][7]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>           >>> 2. mailto[14]:[7][8]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>           >>> 3. mailto[15]:[8][9]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>           >>> 4. mailto[16]:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>           > --
>           >
>           > --
>           >
>           > IN LIBERTY,
>           > CARYN ANN HARLOS
>           > Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>      Secretary -
>           [17]Caryn.Ann
>           .[18] Harlos at LP.org or[19] Secretary at LP.org.
>           > Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -[20]
>      LPedia at LP.org
>           >
>           > A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>           > _We defend your rights_
>           > _And oppose the use of force_
>           > _Taxation is theft_
>              They can disagree all they want.   But, there's no 
> authority
>      for
>           them.
>              ---
>              Elizabeth Van Horn
>              On [21]2018-07-20 11:08, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:
>              There's a JC presently electing its chair that disagrees.
>              On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 8:24 AM Elizabeth Van Horn
>              <[1[22]][9][10]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org> wrote:
>                There's no JC, so no resolution can be made.
>                ---
>                Elizabeth Van Horn
>                On [23]2018-07-20 08:58, Caryn Ann Harlos via 
> Lnc-business
>           wrote:
>                > It seems that the JC took it upon itself to resolve - 
> it
>      is
>           up to
>                the
>                >    membership to complain about that if they wish.  I
>      submit
>           we
>                simply
>                > go
>                >    on about our jobs and stay out of it.
>                >    -Caryn Ann
>                >
>                >    On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Richard Longstreth
>      via
>                Lnc-business
>              >    <[1][2[24]][10][11]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>              >
>              >         I am assuming that JC will be an agenda item in
>      Phoenix.
>              If
>              > not,
>              >      could
>              >         we please add it? If not, are we done with that
>         discussion
>              and
>              >      simply
>              >         not having a JC or what are the next points of
>         discussion?
>              I
>              > want
>              >      to
>              >         fully resolve this issue the best we can and 
> move
>         forward.
>              I
>              >      abstained
>              >         last vote to approve but my mind is still not
>      settled.
>              >         There is no good solution here, but one of may
>      state
>              chairs put
>              >      very
>              >         simply:
>              >         "I find this whole debacle with process to be
>         detrimental
>              and
>              >      don't
>              >         really care one way or the other how it pans 
> out.
>      Nobody
>              is
>              > going
>              >      to be
>              >         100% on this as is evidenced by the gridlock on
>      some of
>              the
>              > first
>              >      true
>              >         membership affecting votes from the LNC."
>              >         We need to resolve and move forward.
>              >         Richard
>              >         --
>              >         Richard Longstreth
>              >         Region 1 Representative (AK, AZ, CO, KS, MT, NM,
>      OR, HI,
>              UT,
>              > WA,
>              >      WY)
>              >         Libertarian National Committee
>                >         [1][2][3[25]][11][12]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>                >         [26]931.538.9300
>                >      References
>                >         1.
>      mailto:[3][4[27]][12][13]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>                >
>                >    --
>                >    --
>                >    In Liberty,
>                >    Caryn Ann Harlos
>                >    Libertarian Party and Libertarian National 
> Committee
>           Secretary
>                >    - [4][28]Caryn.Ann.[29] Harlos at LP.org or[30]
>           Secretary at LP.org.
>                >    Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -[31]
>           LPedia at LP.org
>                >    A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>                >    We defend your rights
>                >    And oppose the use of force
>                >    Taxation is theft
>                >
>                > References
>                >
>                >    1. mailto:[5[32]][13][14]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>                >    2. mailto:[6[33]][14][15]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>                >    3. mailto:[7[34]][15][16]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>                >    4. mailto:[8[35]]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>                --
>              --
>              In Liberty,
>              Caryn Ann Harlos
>              Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>      Secretary
>              - [9][36]Caryn.Ann.[37] Harlos at LP.org or[38]
>      Secretary at LP.org.
>              Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee -[39]
>      LPedia at LP.org
>              A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>              We defend your rights
>              And oppose the use of force
>              Taxation is theft
>           References
>              1. mailto[40]:[16][17]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>              2. mailto[41]:[17][18]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>              3. mailto[42]:[18][19]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>              4. mailto[43]:[19][20]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>              5. mailto[44]:[20][21]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>              6. mailto[45]:[21][22]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>              7. mailto[46]:[22][23]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>              8. mailto[47]:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>              9. mailto[48]:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>           References
>              1. tel:217-412-5973
>              2. mailto:;[23][24]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>              3. tel:2018-07-20 11
>              4. tel:2018-07-20 08
>              5. mailto:][24][25]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>              6. mailto:][25][26]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>              7. tel:931.538.9300
>              8. mailto:][26][27]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>              9. [27][28]http://Caryn.An/
>             10. mailto: Harlos at LP.org
>             11. mailto: Secretary at LP.org.
>             12. mailto: LPedia at LP.org
>             13. mailto::[28][29]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>             14. mailto::[29][30]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             15. mailto::[30][31]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             16. mailto::Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>             17. [31][32]http://Caryn.An/
>             18. mailto: Harlos at LP.org
>             19. mailto: Secretary at LP.org.
>             20. mailto: LPedia at LP.org
>             21. tel:2018-07-20 11
>             22. mailto:][32][33]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>             23. tel:2018-07-20 08
>             24. mailto:][33][34]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>             25. mailto:][34][35]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             26. tel:931.538.9300
>             27. mailto:][35][36]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             28. [36][37]http://Caryn.An/
>             29. mailto: Harlos at LP.org
>             30. mailto: Secretary at LP.org.
>             31. mailto: LPedia at LP.org
>             32. mailto:][37][38]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>             33. mailto:][38][39]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             34. mailto:][39][40]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             35. mailto:]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>             36. [40][41]http://Caryn.An/
>             37. mailto: Harlos at LP.org
>             38. mailto: Secretary at LP.org.
>             39. mailto: LPedia at LP.org
>             40. mailto::[41][42]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>             41. mailto::[42][43]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>             42. mailto::[43][44]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             43. mailto::[44][45]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             44. mailto::[45][46]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>             45. mailto::[46][47]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             46. mailto::[47][48]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>             47. mailto::Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>             48. mailto::Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>      References
>         1. mailto:[49]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>         2. mailto:[50]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>         3. mailto:[51]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>         4. mailto:[52]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>         5. mailto:[53]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>         6. mailto:[54]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>         7. mailto:[55]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>         8. mailto:[56]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>         9. mailto:[57]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>        10. mailto:[58]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        11. mailto:[59]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        12. mailto:[60]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        13. mailto:[61]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        14. mailto:[62]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        15. mailto:[63]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        16. mailto:[64]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>        17. mailto:[65]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        18. mailto:[66]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        19. mailto:[67]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        20. mailto:[68]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        21. mailto:[69]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        22. mailto:[70]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        23. mailto:[71]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        24. mailto:[72]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        25. mailto:[73]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        26. mailto:[74]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        27. [75]http://Caryn.An/
>        28. mailto:[76]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        29. mailto:[77]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        30. mailto:[78]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        31. [79]http://Caryn.An/
>        32. mailto:[80]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>        33. mailto:[81]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        34. mailto:[82]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        35. mailto:[83]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        36. [84]http://Caryn.An/
>        37. mailto:[85]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        38. mailto:[86]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        39. mailto:[87]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        40. [88]http://Caryn.An/
>        41. mailto:[89]elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>        42. mailto:[90]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        43. mailto:[91]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        44. mailto:[92]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        45. mailto:[93]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>        46. mailto:[94]richard.longstreth at lp.org
>        47. mailto:[95]richard.longstreth at lp.org
> 
>    --
> 
>    --
>    In Liberty,
>    Caryn Ann Harlos
>    Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
>    - [96]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>    Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>    A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
>    We defend your rights
>    And oppose the use of force
>    Taxation is theft
> 
> References
> 
>    1. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>    2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>    3. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>    4. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>    5. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>    6. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>    7. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>    8. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>    9. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   10. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   11. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   12. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   13. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   14. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   15. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   16. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   17. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   18. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   19. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   20. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   21. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   22. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   23. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   24. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   25. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   26. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   27. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   28. http://Caryn.An/
>   29. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   30. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   31. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   32. http://Caryn.An/
>   33. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   34. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   35. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   36. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   37. http://Caryn.An/
>   38. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   39. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   40. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   41. http://Caryn.An/
>   42. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   43. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   44. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   45. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   46. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   47. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   48. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   49. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   50. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   51. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   52. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   53. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   54. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   55. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   56. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   57. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   58. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   59. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   60. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   61. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   62. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   63. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   64. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   65. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   66. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   67. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   68. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   69. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   70. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   71. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   72. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   73. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   74. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   75. http://Caryn.An/
>   76. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   77. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   78. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   79. http://Caryn.An/
>   80. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   81. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   82. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   83. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   84. http://Caryn.An/
>   85. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   86. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   87. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   88. http://Caryn.An/
>   89. mailto:elizabeth.vanhorn at lp.org
>   90. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   91. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   92. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   93. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>   94. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   95. mailto:richard.longstreth at lp.org
>   96. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org



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