[Lnc-business] Fwd: Confidence in LNC restored
Susan Hogarth
susan.hogarth at lp.org
Tue Aug 14 03:50:44 EDT 2018
“Doing X was bad, but it happened. So now we need to do *more* of X. Because X was bad.”
Wait, what?
>
>
>
>
> If this body thinks that socialism is fine and dandy with the general Party membership
>
>
>
There really is room for more options than “DENOUNCE THE SOCIALISTS” and “this body thinks that socialism is fine and dandy”. The old “you’re with us or you’re with the socialists” line gets tedious.
But setting those things aside; what do you want to happen here? You’ve denounced. Others have denounced. Do you want memes? Resolutions? Essays? Beheadings? Where is this heading?
Susan Jane Hogarth
Region 5 Alternate
919-906-2106 (tel:919-906-2106)
>
> On Aug 14, 2018 at 3:20 AM, <Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business (mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> If we ignored everything routinely I would not have as much of an issue
> ignoring this. But we haven't. We (either as a Party or through very
> public actions of LNC members) went after not only the alt-right but
> prominent libertarian "celebertarians" who some thought were too cozy
> with the alt right. I think those fights picked went into the land of
> petty but that's not my call - it wasn't me. I do know that those
> actions reverberated a lot of internal damage in our party with solid
> Libertarians.
> We entertained people who were wanting to be sure that Florida knew
> that dis-affiliation was on the table due to a handful of loud-mouthed
> neo-nazi types there and justified it because one of them - August
> Invictus - had been a candidate under the L banner. And it was a mere
> handful of people none of whom ever made it on the national stage at
> our convention to do a nazi salute.
> WE HAVE AN OPEN COMMUNIST RUNNING UNDER THE L BANNER NOW.
> The inconsistency is glaring. Are we a leftist party? I thought we
> were neither left nor right but the hard push left is undeniable - be
> honest with the membership if that is what we are.
> I left the right. I have no love for the right. But much like the
> South Park creator, that doesn't mean I now love the left.
> If this body thinks that socialism is fine and dandy with the general
> Party membership, we are woefully out of touch.
> -Caryn Ann
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 9:27 PM, brent.olsen--- via Lnc-business
> <[1]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
> Sadly, this is not so. I have spoken personally to three
> individuals over the past week who had reservations about joining
> the Libertarian Party because they were concerned that the
> Libertarian Party was embracing socialism. One of these
> individuals, who I spoke with yesterday, does not know any other
> Libertarians and had heard about the party from his friend at work,
> the daughter of 1984 Libertarian Party presidential candidate David
> Bergland. He is a small town guy from Chico, California. When he
> spoke to me he had serious concerns that the Libertarian Party did
> not support private property rights. He does not use social media
> at all, but when he looked up the Libertarian Party online some of
> the first things that came to his attention were these LibSoc ideas
> that are in opposition to private property rights. He is one of
> three individuals who I have talked to in the past week with these
> concerns. How many people are we losing because when they research
> us they find this garbage? This is becoming a more serious problem
> and we can not in good conscience continue to ignore this.
> In Liberty,
> K. Brent Olsen, Psy.D.
> Alternate, Region 4
>
> On 2018-08-13 16:45, phillip.anderson--- via Lnc-business wrote:
>
> Thankfully, the general public and electorate, and most of our
> membership, are oblivious to these inside squabbles, and have a
> pretty
> good understanding of what libertarianism is and isn't from our
> candidates. At least, whatever misconceptions the public might
> have
> come from non-libertarians, not from the LNC or any caucus.
> Get [1]Outlook for Android
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 6:16 PM -0500, "Susan Hogarth via
> Lnc-business"
> <[2][2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> Isn’t it funny how a few trolls and their useful idiots can have us
> at each oth
> ers’ throats? Grandstanding, posturing, threatening to quit?
> If it had been planned it couldn’t have worked better.
> The LP has been around for over five decades, with plenty of
> left/right fringers
> trying to get a toehold. They will go, and until they do they are a
> tiny minori
> ty among us. The posturing and bulldogging gives them much more
> credibility than
> they would ever see within the party if they were simply shunned as
> the fools t
> hey are.
> I think we should assume less of a defensive posture - that makes us
> look weak.
> I don’t think we need denouncements or proclamations. These guys
> were roundly re
> jected at the Convention. Why keep letting them determine our
> discourse and set
> the tone of our conversations?
> Our words and actions should in almost every case describe what the
> Libertarian
> Party *is*, rather than be a response to what a few trolls want to
> make it.
> By all means celebrate capitalism. I want to see the Party doing
> more of that. A
> ll this talking about communism *associates* communism and the LP.
> It makes it s
> eem as if we are facing a huge existential crisis and perilously
> close to adopti
> ng socialism as the LP’s preferred economic ideology We’re not.
> Susan Jane Hogarth
> Region 5 Alternate
> 919-906-2106 (tel:919-906-2106)
>
> On Aug 13, 2018 at 6:56 PM, wrote:
> I will state that as a candidate in Utah, if we moved toward
> socialism,
> I would burn my card and denounce the Libertarian Party mid-race.
> Principles are why I came here. If we don't stand up for them, I
> will be
> gone. That simple.
> Principles are: non aggression. Self-ownership.
> If we take that stand that non voluntary means are acceptable, such
> as
> the end result of socialism, then we are lost and I will be once
> again
> politically homeless. I have no problems with co-ops existing. You
> do
> you, but there must be the ability for a person to revoke consent
> and
> leave a commune in order for it to be voluntary. Since there has
> been
> advocacy for the forced taking of property, I cannot support that,
> will
> not support that, and anyone in Region 1 who has a problem with me
> saying such is welcome to demand a recall of my post with their
> chairs.
> It is NOT divisive to call out aggression in ideology.
> Craig Bowden
> Region 1 Alternate
> On 2018-08-13 13:10, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> > Since a criticism lodged was about distraction from candidates-
> expect
> > letters from candidates who have expressed that it kept them in
> the
> > race because they could point to national leaders repudiating
> this.
> >
> > If you don’t think association with communism will come out and
> bite
> > our candidates in the ass, well....
> >
> > I know that not everyone cares about the sheerly ideological
> points
> > but
> > rather are election focused.
> >
> > How is welcoming communists and looting business owners going to
> > help
> > us at the polls??
> >
> > It isn’t.
> >
> > -Caryn Ann
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 12:55 PM Justin O'Donnell via
> Lnc-business
> > <[1][3]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >
> > I received the following email, espousing praise for Ms Harlos
> and
> > Mr
> > Smith for their opposition to socialist influence in the LP.
> > ---
> > Yours in Liberty,
> > Justin O'Donnell
> > LNC Region 8 Representative
> > LPNH Alternate- LNC Platform Committee
> > Chair- LPNH Platform Committee
> > Candidate for US Congress, NH-2
> > [2][4]www.odonnell2018.org
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Confidence in LNC restored
> > Date: 2018-08-13 14:48
> > From: demochamp <[3][5]demochamp at yahoo.com>
> > To: [4][6]justin.odonnell at lp.org
> > Hello my name is Michael Cordova I am a Libertarian party member
> > from
> > Albuquerque New Mexico.
> > Last week after much consideration I renewed my membership to
> > the
> > Libertarian party
> > I had recently let my membership lapse for several months trying
> > to
> > figure out where I belong, due to the recent run for national
> > chair
> > by a
> > self proclaimed socialist as well as rhetoric from the
> libertarian
> > socialist caucus. I had lost hope that I belonged in the LP. I do
> > not
> > support "bottom unity" and fail to understand how socialism of
> any
> > kind
> > is compatible with the LP.
> > I am writing this e-mail because several members of the LNC
> > have
> > stepped up and spoken out against socialism and what I consider
> an
> > attempted socialist takeover.
> > I would like to personally thank:
> > Caryn Ann Harlos & Joshua Smith
> > They both have renewed my confidence in the LP leadership and
> have
> > giving me hope for the future of the party.
> > I can now tell my friends and family who were hesitant to join
> > the
> > party due to the ties to left wing economic policies like
> Medicare
> > for
> > all and ideas like rent is theft and capitalism is murder, that
> > those
> > ideas and policies do not represent me nor the Libertarian party.
> > Thanks again.
> > Michael Cordova
> >
> > --
> >
> > --
> > In Liberty,
> > Caryn Ann Harlos
> > Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
> > - [5]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
> > Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
> > A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
> > We defend your rights
> > And oppose the use of force
> > Taxation is theft
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:[7]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> > 2. [8]http://www.odonnell2018.org/
> > 3. mailto:[9]demochamp at yahoo.com
> > 4. mailto:[10]justin.odonnell at lp.org
> > 5. mailto:[11]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>
> References
> 1. [12]https://aka.ms/ghei36
> 2. mailto:[13]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>
> --
> --
> In Liberty,
> Caryn Ann Harlos
> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
> - [14]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
> We defend your rights
> And oppose the use of force
> Taxation is theft
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 3. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 4. http://www.odonnell2018.org/
> 5. mailto:demochamp at yahoo.com
> 6. mailto:justin.odonnell at lp.org
> 7. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 8. http://www.odonnell2018.org/
> 9. mailto:demochamp at yahoo.com
> 10. mailto:justin.odonnell at lp.org
> 11. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
> 12. https://aka.ms/ghei36
> 13. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 14. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
“Doing X was bad, but it happened. So now we need to do *more* of X.
Because X was bad.”
Wait, what?
If this body thinks that socialism is fine and dandy with the general
Party membership
There really is room for more options than “DENOUNCE THE SOCIALISTS”
and “this body thinks that socialism is fine and dandy”. The old
“you’re with us or you’re with the socialists” line gets tedious.
But setting those things aside; what do you want to happen here? You’ve
denounced. Others have denounced. Do you want memes? Resolutions?
Essays? Beheadings? Where is this heading?
Susan Jane Hogarth
Region 5 Alternate
[1]919-906-2106
On Aug 14, 2018 at 3:20 AM, <[2]Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business>
wrote:
If we ignored everything routinely I would not have as much of an issue
ignoring this. But we haven't. We (either as a Party or through very
public actions of LNC members) went after not only the alt-right but
prominent libertarian "celebertarians" who some thought were too cozy
with the alt right. I think those fights picked went into the land of
petty but that's not my call - it wasn't me. I do know that those
actions reverberated a lot of internal damage in our party with solid
Libertarians.
We entertained people who were wanting to be sure that Florida knew
that dis-affiliation was on the table due to a handful of loud-mouthed
neo-nazi types there and justified it because one of them - August
Invictus - had been a candidate under the L banner. And it was a mere
handful of people none of whom ever made it on the national stage at
our convention to do a nazi salute.
WE HAVE AN OPEN COMMUNIST RUNNING UNDER THE L BANNER NOW.
The inconsistency is glaring. Are we a leftist party? I thought we
were neither left nor right but the hard push left is undeniable - be
honest with the membership if that is what we are.
I left the right. I have no love for the right. But much like the
South Park creator, that doesn't mean I now love the left.
If this body thinks that socialism is fine and dandy with the general
Party membership, we are woefully out of touch.
-Caryn Ann
On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 9:27 PM, brent.olsen--- via Lnc-business
<[1]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
Sadly, this is not so. I have spoken personally to three
individuals over the past week who had reservations about joining
the Libertarian Party because they were concerned that the
Libertarian Party was embracing socialism. One of these
individuals, who I spoke with yesterday, does not know any other
Libertarians and had heard about the party from his friend at work,
the daughter of 1984 Libertarian Party presidential candidate David
Bergland. He is a small town guy from Chico, California. When he
spoke to me he had serious concerns that the Libertarian Party did
not support private property rights. He does not use social media
at all, but when he looked up the Libertarian Party online some of
the first things that came to his attention were these LibSoc ideas
that are in opposition to private property rights. He is one of
three individuals who I have talked to in the past week with these
concerns. How many people are we losing because when they research
us they find this garbage? This is becoming a more serious problem
and we can not in good conscience continue to ignore this.
In Liberty,
K. Brent Olsen, Psy.D.
Alternate, Region 4
On 2018-08-13 16:45, phillip.anderson--- via Lnc-business wrote:
Thankfully, the general public and electorate, and most of our
membership, are oblivious to these inside squabbles, and have a
pretty
good understanding of what libertarianism is and isn't from our
candidates. At least, whatever misconceptions the public might
have
come from non-libertarians, not from the LNC or any caucus.
Get [1]Outlook for Android
On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 6:16 PM -0500, "Susan Hogarth via
Lnc-business"
<[2][2]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
Isn’t it funny how a few trolls and their useful idiots can have us
at each oth
ers’ throats? Grandstanding, posturing, threatening to quit?
If it had been planned it couldn’t have worked better.
The LP has been around for over five decades, with plenty of
left/right fringers
trying to get a toehold. They will go, and until they do they are a
tiny minori
ty among us. The posturing and bulldogging gives them much more
credibility than
they would ever see within the party if they were simply shunned as
the fools t
hey are.
I think we should assume less of a defensive posture - that makes us
look weak.
I don’t think we need denouncements or proclamations. These guys
were roundly re
jected at the Convention. Why keep letting them determine our
discourse and set
the tone of our conversations?
Our words and actions should in almost every case describe what the
Libertarian
Party *is*, rather than be a response to what a few trolls want to
make it.
By all means celebrate capitalism. I want to see the Party doing
more of that. A
ll this talking about communism *associates* communism and the LP.
It makes it s
eem as if we are facing a huge existential crisis and perilously
close to adopti
ng socialism as the LP’s preferred economic ideology We’re not.
Susan Jane Hogarth
Region 5 Alternate
919-906-2106 (tel:919-906-2106)
On Aug 13, 2018 at 6:56 PM, wrote:
I will state that as a candidate in Utah, if we moved toward
socialism,
I would burn my card and denounce the Libertarian Party mid-race.
Principles are why I came here. If we don't stand up for them, I
will be
gone. That simple.
Principles are: non aggression. Self-ownership.
If we take that stand that non voluntary means are acceptable, such
as
the end result of socialism, then we are lost and I will be once
again
politically homeless. I have no problems with co-ops existing. You
do
you, but there must be the ability for a person to revoke consent
and
leave a commune in order for it to be voluntary. Since there has
been
advocacy for the forced taking of property, I cannot support that,
will
not support that, and anyone in Region 1 who has a problem with me
saying such is welcome to demand a recall of my post with their
chairs.
It is NOT divisive to call out aggression in ideology.
Craig Bowden
Region 1 Alternate
On 2018-08-13 13:10, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> Since a criticism lodged was about distraction from candidates-
expect
> letters from candidates who have expressed that it kept them in
the
> race because they could point to national leaders repudiating
this.
>
> If you don’t think association with communism will come out and
bite
> our candidates in the ass, well....
>
> I know that not everyone cares about the sheerly ideological
points
> but
> rather are election focused.
>
> How is welcoming communists and looting business owners going to
> help
> us at the polls??
>
> It isn’t.
>
> -Caryn Ann
>
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 12:55 PM Justin O'Donnell via
Lnc-business
> <[1][3]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
> I received the following email, espousing praise for Ms Harlos
and
> Mr
> Smith for their opposition to socialist influence in the LP.
> ---
> Yours in Liberty,
> Justin O'Donnell
> LNC Region 8 Representative
> LPNH Alternate- LNC Platform Committee
> Chair- LPNH Platform Committee
> Candidate for US Congress, NH-2
> [2][4]www.odonnell2018.org
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Confidence in LNC restored
> Date: 2018-08-13 14:48
> From: demochamp <[3][5]demochamp at yahoo.com>
> To: [4][6]justin.odonnell at lp.org
> Hello my name is Michael Cordova I am a Libertarian party member
> from
> Albuquerque New Mexico.
> Last week after much consideration I renewed my membership to
> the
> Libertarian party
> I had recently let my membership lapse for several months trying
> to
> figure out where I belong, due to the recent run for national
> chair
> by a
> self proclaimed socialist as well as rhetoric from the
libertarian
> socialist caucus. I had lost hope that I belonged in the LP. I do
> not
> support "bottom unity" and fail to understand how socialism of
any
> kind
> is compatible with the LP.
> I am writing this e-mail because several members of the LNC
> have
> stepped up and spoken out against socialism and what I consider
an
> attempted socialist takeover.
> I would like to personally thank:
> Caryn Ann Harlos & Joshua Smith
> They both have renewed my confidence in the LP leadership and
have
> giving me hope for the future of the party.
> I can now tell my friends and family who were hesitant to join
> the
> party due to the ties to left wing economic policies like
Medicare
> for
> all and ideas like rent is theft and capitalism is murder, that
> those
> ideas and policies do not represent me nor the Libertarian party.
> Thanks again.
> Michael Cordova
>
> --
>
> --
> In Liberty,
> Caryn Ann Harlos
> Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
> - [5]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
> Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
> A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
> We defend your rights
> And oppose the use of force
> Taxation is theft
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[7]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
> 2. [8]http://www.odonnell2018.org/
> 3. mailto:[9]demochamp at yahoo.com
> 4. mailto:[10]justin.odonnell at lp.org
> 5. mailto:[11]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
References
1. [12]https://aka.ms/ghei36
2. mailto:[13]lnc-business at hq.lp.org
--
--
In Liberty,
Caryn Ann Harlos
Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
- [14]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
A haiku to the Statement of Principles:
We defend your rights
And oppose the use of force
Taxation is theft
References
1. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
3. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
4. http://www.odonnell2018.org/
5. mailto:demochamp at yahoo.com
6. mailto:justin.odonnell at lp.org
7. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
8. http://www.odonnell2018.org/
9. mailto:demochamp at yahoo.com
10. mailto:justin.odonnell at lp.org
11. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
12. https://aka.ms/ghei36
13. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
14. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
References
1. tel:919-906-2106
2. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
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