[Lnc-business] BALLOT 190203-1 Immigration Resolution

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

The Chair will need to rule on the correctness or not but what was done is
how we have done for years but logically consistent.

The only procedure purpose to express abstain is to acknowledge one is
present but not supporting or opposing.  It is equivalent to present.  Then
votes are counted as per RONR 400 which says the percentage for passage is
calculated including the person who was entitled to vote and present but
did not vote.

An alternate there is for an absence from the table.  Otherwise I guess we
now expect the Chair to move to the gallery for alternate votes if a
regional ever abstains.

In order to be absent in order for an alternate to vote the regional must
not register a presence or explicitly withdraw their presence and defer to
the alternate.

In the past vote of the suspension of Mr. Vohra, an alternate supported but
then the regional cast an express abstention thus the alternate vote was
not counted.  Are we now arguing this is only correct when the abstention
comes first but not second?  If not, was the tally on the suspension vote
of Mr. Vohra invalid and he in fact was suspended?  I know some members who
would be delighted to hear that but no one challenged because the count was
correct.  An express abstention of the regional voids any alternate vote.

I hope this encourages LNC members to carefully review the vote tally sheet
during the voting process - there was an explicit explanatory note why Mr.
Lyons’ vote was not counted.



On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 3:00 PM Joe Bishop-Henchman <
joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org> wrote:

> I would certainly appreciate the clarification. I'm struck that we are
> both counting Mr. O'Donnell's abstention as a non-vote to reduce the
> threshold for passage but then also counting it as vote to not
> substitute in Mr. Lyons's vote. I could see doing both or neither but
> have trouble understanding doing one but not the other.
>
> If the intent of our Region 8 colleagues was for Mr. O'Donnell to
> expressly let Mr. Lyons vote on this one, I'm guessing we would all
> benefit from knowing how to do that correctly.
>
> JBH
>
> ------------
> Joe Bishop-Henchman
> LNC Member (At-Large)
> joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
> www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837
>
> On 2019-02-11 16:38, Jeff Lyons via Lnc-business wrote:
> > I will apologize for my ignorance on Robert's Rules, and whatever the
> > clarification is as a result of the Point of Order, Mr. O'Donnell and
> > I will take care to abide in the future.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As far as sharing emails, which I am assuming you are referring to
> > when I shared the Resolution, along with only Mr. O'Donnells and my
> > response with our LNC Region 8 group- you are not Region 8.  This is
> > not a confidential topic, and it is in fact publicly accessible to our
> > members, is it not?  Regardless, we are free to share our responses
> > and communicate with our constituents whom those responses are
> > supposed to represent.  Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Since the Point of Order is already in motion, I guess we have to let
> > it run its course, but I acknowledge that the mistake is ours (Mr.
> > O'Donnell and I), and am willing to stand down.  Apologies for the
> > rookie mistake.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In Liberty,
> >
> >
> > Jeff Lyons
> >
> >
> > LNC 8A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Get Outlook for Android
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Get Outlook for Android
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:16 PM -0500, "Caryn Ann Harlos"
> > <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I will alert the Chair that you raised a Point of Order
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 2:15 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
> > <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
> > I can’t make rulings.  The proper procedure is to raise a point of
> > order to the Chair.
> > I will note this has been the LNC practice for the four years I’ve
> > been observing.  Further, this is not what happens at meetings.  You
> > do not see the Chair scanning the room to see if an alternate is
> > present every time a regional objects.
> > The purpose is for an alt to participate when a regional is not “at
> > the table.”  By registering an abstention Mr. O’Donnel registered a
> > “present”
> > I would also note that the notation was in my voting tally sheet for
> > days to avoid issues like this and nothing was said.  Other people may
> > have changed their votes or the Chair may have voted if the count was
> > different - that is why I urge everyone to review during voting.
> > I lastly submit that I think the sharing of the personal
> > correspondence in bad taste.  I would not be happy if I found out my
> > peers called my resolution “stupid” and I would remind everyone this
> > was submitted by a member to whom we serve.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 12:20 PM Justin O'Donnell
> > <justin.odonnell at lp.org> wrote:
> > If need be for procedural reasons, I will move the appeal on Mr Lyons'
> >
> > Behalf.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Yours in Liberty,
> >
> >
> >
> > Justin O'Donnell
> >
> > LNC Region 8 Representative
> >
> > Chair- LPNH Platform Committee
> >
> > www.justinodonnell.me
> >
> >
> >
> > Renew your membership today at https://www.lp.org/wethepeople/?f=jod !
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2019-02-11 14:05, Jeff Lyons wrote:
> >
> >> All,
> >
> >>
> >
> >>       I would like to Appeal the Secretary's ruling and Raise a Point
> >
> >> of Order.  Not because I want to override the near 3/4 support for
> >
> >> this resolution, but because it was in fact Mr. O'Donnell's intention
> >
> >> to not be counted, and allow me as alternate to express a more
> >
> >> strongly held conviction in my vote casting (albeit only slightly),
> >
> >> and I think this should fall under our Policy Manual:
> >
> >>
> >
> >>   "Section 1.01 GENERAL DELEGATION OF AUTHORITY
> >
> >>
> >
> >> 1) Participation by LNC Alternates at Meetings
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Free substitution of Alternates for Regional Representatives at LNC
> >
> >> meetings is permitted."
> >
> >>
> >
> >>       Roberts Rules does not have much on the topic of alternates in
> >
> >> the way we use them.  In my view, an Abstention on an Electronic Mail
> >
> >> Ballot should automatically defer to the Alternate, because that is
> >
> >> what alternates are for.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Thanks for your consideration, sorry for being a pain, but both LNC 8
> >
> >> Reps were generally against this resolution and should ultimately be
> >
> >> counted as such.
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Very Respectfully,
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Jeff Lyons
> >
> >>
> >
> >> LNC 8A
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Get Outlook for Android [1]
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Get Outlook for Android [1]
> >
> >>
> >
> >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 8:21 AM -0500, "Jeff Lyons via Lnc-business"
> >
> >> <lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> >>> Actually now that I see this takes 3/4 votes, and 14 * .75 = 10.5,
> >
> >>> and the motion should then fail?
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> -Jeff Lyons
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> LNC 8A
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Get Outlook for Android
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 8:14 AM -0500, "Jeff Lyons via Lnc-business"
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Mrs. Harlos,
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> It doesn't effect the result but Mr. O'Donnell abstained, and
> >
> >>> as the alternate I voted No.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Thanks.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> -Jeff Lyons
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Get Outlook for Android
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:38 AM -0500, "Caryn Ann Harlos via
> >
> >>> Lnc-business"  wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Voting has ENDED for the email *BALLOT 190203-1 Immigration
> >
> >>> Resolution*
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> All names are listed alphabetically by surname.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *Motion:* Move to adopt the following resolution:
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party believes that the only proper role
> >
> >>> of law
> >
> >>> is in the protection of the natural rights of individuals from the
> >
> >>> initiation of force or fraud; WHEREAS, no individual has a natural
> >
> >>> right to
> >
> >>> prohibit consensual visitation to or consensual habitation on the
> >
> >>> private
> >
> >>> property of another individual; WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party
> >
> >>> believes
> >
> >>> that eminent domain is a violation of private property rights;
> >
> >>> WHEREAS, we
> >
> >>> affirm the right of individuals to set whatever standards they wish
> >
> >>> for
> >
> >>> entry onto their own private property but not that owned by others;
> >
> >>> WHEREAS, we believe that all individuals have the same natural
> >
> >>> rights
> >
> >>> regardless of their citizenship; WHEREAS, the Libertarian Party
> >
> >>> holds that
> >
> >>> any concerns related to the border, valid or otherwise, are better
> >
> >>> addressed by removing the root causes of such concerns. Actions such
> >
> >>> as
> >
> >>> ending the War on Drugs, decriminalization of sex work, ending the
> >
> >>> welfare
> >
> >>> state, and allowing free trade would not only address those
> >
> >>> concerns, but
> >
> >>> do so in a budget positive way rather than costing billions;
> >
> >>> WHEREAS, the
> >
> >>> Libertarian Party acknowledges that economic freedom demands the
> >
> >>> unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across
> >
> >>> national
> >
> >>> borders: NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Libertarian Party
> >
> >>> condemns
> >
> >>> and opposes efforts to build a governmental border wall, be it
> >
> >>> through
> >
> >>> congress or gross abuse of authority in an ill-founded declaration
> >
> >>> of
> >
> >>> emergency. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Libertarian Party
> >
> >>> supports the
> >
> >>> natural right of freedom of movement of all peaceful people, for any
> >
> >>> reason, subject only to rights of other individuals to control their
> >
> >>> own
> >
> >>> privately owned property.*
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *Co-Sponsors: * Harlos, Longstreth, Merced, Phillips
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *Voting "aye":*  Bilyeu, Bishop-Henchman, Goldstein, Harlos, Hewitt,
> >
> >>> Lark,
> >
> >>> Longstreth, Merced, Phillips, Redpath
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *Voting "nay": *Mattson, Smith, Van Horn
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *Express Abstention:*  O''Donnell
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *No Vote Cast:* Hagan, Nekhaila/Lee, Sarwark
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> With a final vote tally of 10-3-1 the motion *PASSED.*
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *Note: * Secretary's Notes: Public policy resolutions require a 3/4
> >
> >>> vote as
> >
> >>> per Bylaw 7.11. There were thirteen votes cast (excluding the one
> >
> >>> abstention) which would set the 3/4 threshold at 10. The "aye" votes
> >
> >>> met
> >
> >>> that threshold.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> You can view the Secretary's manual tally of votes here:
> >
> >>> https://tinyurl.com/lncvotes2019.  Votes are noted with a link to
> >
> >>> the
> >
> >>> actual ballot cast for verification.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> Please notify me of any discrepancies.
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 11:57 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>> Joshua is having email troubles and sent me a screenshot of his
> >
> >>> email to
> >
> >>>> record.  He has tried sending to the list and to me personally and
> >
> >>> none
> >
> >>>> have gotten through.  He votes no.  See attached.
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 6:16 PM Jeff Hewitt  wrote:
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>> I vote Yes on the resolution. Jeff Hewitt Region 4 Rep
> >
> >>>>>
> >
> >>>>> On 2019-02-10 07:36, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> Reminder on this ballot ending today.
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>> I do not record votes from Hagan, Hewitt/Olsen, Lark/Hogarth,
> >
> >>>>>> Longstreth/Bowden, Nekhaila/Lee, Sarwark, Smith
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 5:32 AM Joe Bishop-Henchman <
> >
> >>>>>> joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org> wrote:
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>>> I vote yes.
> >
> >>>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>> --
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>> *  In Liberty,*
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary
> >
> >>> *-
> >
> >>>>>> Caryn.Ann.
> >
> >>>>>> Harlos at LP.org  or Secretary at LP.org.
> >
> >>>>>> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >
> >>>>>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >
> >>>>>> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >
> >>>>>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
> >
> >>> Re-Legalize
> >
> >>>>>> All
> >
> >>>>>> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All
> >
> >>> Gun Laws *
> >
> >>>>>> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The
> >
> >>> Fed * End
> >
> >>>>>> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
> >
> >>> Income
> >
> >>>>>> Tax
> >
> >>>>>> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market
> >
> >>> Emergency
> >
> >>>>>> Services
> >
> >>>>>> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private
> >
> >>> Sector *
> >
> >>>>>> Eliminate Regulation *
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org
> >
> >>>>>> *
> >
> >>>>>>
> >
> >>>>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >
> >>>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>> --
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>> *  In Liberty,*
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> >
> >>> Caryn.Ann.
> >
> >>>> Harlos at LP.org  or Secretary at LP.org.
> >
> >>>> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >
> >>>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >
> >>>> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >
> >>>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
> >
> >>> Re-Legalize All
> >
> >>>> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
> >
> >>> Laws *
> >
> >>>> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed
> >
> >>> * End
> >
> >>>> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
> >
> >>> Income Tax
> >
> >>>> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> >
> >>> Services
> >
> >>>> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private
> >
> >>> Sector *
> >
> >>>> Eliminate Regulation *
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org *
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> --
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *  In Liberty,*
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> >
> >>> Caryn.Ann.
> >
> >>> Harlos at LP.org  or Secretary at LP.org.
> >
> >>> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >
> >>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >
> >>> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >
> >>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
> >
> >>> Re-Legalize All
> >
> >>> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
> >
> >>> Laws *
> >
> >>> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
> >
> >>> End
> >
> >>> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
> >
> >>> Income Tax
> >
> >>> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> >
> >>> Services
> >
> >>> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector
> >
> >>> *
> >
> >>> Eliminate Regulation *
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org *
> >
> >>>
> >
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >
> >>
> >
> >>
> >
> >> Links:
> >
> >> ------
> >
> >> [1] https://aka.ms/ghei36
> >
> > --
> >
> >   In Liberty,
> > Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
> > Secretary - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.Chair, LP
> > Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
> > at facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >
> =========================================================================Peaceful
> > Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws
> > * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
> > End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
> > Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market
> > Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To
> > The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
> > VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US
> > or http://www.LP.org
> =========================================================================
>
-- 

*  In Liberty,*

*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/

=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *

*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================