[Lnc-business] Point of order regarding abstention and alternate voting

[Joe Bishop-Henchman]

My gut reaction was that if Mr. O'Donnell had voted present, that would 
have blocked Mr. Lyons's vote. But "I abstain" is synonymous with "I do 
not vote" so it can't also be counted as a vote. Abstention is not "I am 
here but affirmatively do not vote" - that's "present." (Whether 
"expressly abstain" and "abstain" are the same thing...) I think Mr. 
Sarwark reads RONR correctly.

However, we have a bylaw (Article 13: Electronic Mail Ballots) that I'd 
draw people's attention to: "Votes from alternates will be counted, in 
accordance with previously defined ranked order, in the absence of the 
corresponding committee member(s)."

My reading is that Bylaw overrules RONR on this point and results in the 
outcome Ms. Harlos determined. Alternates are only permitted to vote in 
the absence of the regional representative. Mr. O'Donnell gave away that 
he wasn't absent, so Mr. Lyons can't cast a vote. (Only if Mr. O'Donnell 
had said "I am absent" would we be in the kooky situation Ms. Harlos 
brought up, since it's self-contradictory. Anyone who records that they 
are absent is not actually absent.) Which brings us back to the status 
quo ex ante.

JBH

------------
Joe Bishop-Henchman
LNC Member (At-Large)
joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837

On 2019-02-11 19:08, Whitney Bilyeu via Lnc-business wrote:
> I also believe that an expressed abstention holds the place of a vote,
> which would mean an alternate cannot vote on that matter. It is 
> essentially
> NOTA when the two choices are Yes or No...
> 
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:43 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> 
>> PS: to clarify I’m only appealing a portion of the ruling.  I do not
>> contest that abstentions should not count in calculating the 
>> percentage- on
>> my tally sheet I used that number 13 which is total cast and 10 is 
>> 3/4.
>> 
>> I appeal the part that rules that an express abstention paves the way 
>> for
>> the alternate vote to count.  It would lead to the absurd result that 
>> a
>> regional who responds “present” would be contacted as absent.
>> 
>> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:19 PM Caryn Ann Harlos 
>> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> > I appeal from the ruling of the Chair.
>> >
>> > In email votes how is this handled?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:11 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
>> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear All,
>> >>
>> >> Not voting is not a vote. Everything else is commentary.
>> >>
>> >> Under Robert’s Rules, an abstention, express or otherwise, is not a
>> vote.
>> >> They may be noted for clarity, such as accurately reflecting that a
>> member
>> >> was present for the purposes of quorum, or that the member didn’t miss
>> the
>> >> vote, but they do not change the vote count and do not count for the
>> >> calculations of 2/3 or 3/4 unless there is a particular rule that
>> refers to
>> >> the number of members in the committee or number of members in
>> attendance.
>> >> By default, vote thresholds are of members “present and voting.”
>> >>
>> >> A regional alternate does not get a vote except in the absence of a
>> >> regional representative’s vote, by stepping away from the table at an
>> >> in-person meeting or by abstaining in a mail ballot.
>> >>
>> >> In absence of a specific rule in the bylaws or policy manual about
>> >> express abstentions (as opposed to custom or past practice), Mr.
>> >> O’Donnell’s abstention does not count as a vote for either the purpose
>> of
>> >> how many votes are required to meet the 3/4 threshold or for preventing
>> Mr.
>> >> Lyons’ vote from being counted as regional alternate and tallied.
>> >>
>> >> Yours truly,
>> >> Nick
>> >>
>> >> P.S. If you would like to read more about the abstention issue, which is
>> >> very commonly misunderstood, the following links may be of interest:
>> >> http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://www.lawoforderblog.com/2018/03/4-things-most-people-get-wrong-about-abstentions/
>> >> https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Voting-Abstention
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > *  In Liberty,*
>> >
>> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> Caryn.Ann.
>> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >
>> > =========================================================================
>> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>> All
>> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
>> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
>> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
>> Tax
>> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
>> Services
>> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
>> > Eliminate Regulation *
>> >
>> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
>> http://www.lp.org/>*
>> > =========================================================================
>> >
>> --
>> 
>> *  In Liberty,*
>> 
>> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> Caryn.Ann.
>> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> 
>> =========================================================================
>> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize 
>> All
>> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws 
>> *
>> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * 
>> End
>> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income 
>> Tax
>> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency 
>> Services
>> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
>> Eliminate Regulation *
>> 
>> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org 
>> <http://www.lp.org/
>> >*
>> =========================================================================
>>