[Lnc-business] Point of order regarding abstention and alternate voting

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

While we disagree on the path we agree on the outcome.

I’m RONR abstain and present are functionally equivalent and in some
organizations present is used as a matter of custom instead of abstain.

Abstain is I am here and waiving the voting rights of my constituency.

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Joe Bishop-Henchman via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

> My gut reaction was that if Mr. O'Donnell had voted present, that would
> have blocked Mr. Lyons's vote. But "I abstain" is synonymous with "I do
> not vote" so it can't also be counted as a vote. Abstention is not "I am
> here but affirmatively do not vote" - that's "present." (Whether
> "expressly abstain" and "abstain" are the same thing...) I think Mr.
> Sarwark reads RONR correctly.
>
> However, we have a bylaw (Article 13: Electronic Mail Ballots) that I'd
> draw people's attention to: "Votes from alternates will be counted, in
> accordance with previously defined ranked order, in the absence of the
> corresponding committee member(s)."
>
> My reading is that Bylaw overrules RONR on this point and results in the
> outcome Ms. Harlos determined. Alternates are only permitted to vote in
> the absence of the regional representative. Mr. O'Donnell gave away that
> he wasn't absent, so Mr. Lyons can't cast a vote. (Only if Mr. O'Donnell
> had said "I am absent" would we be in the kooky situation Ms. Harlos
> brought up, since it's self-contradictory. Anyone who records that they
> are absent is not actually absent.) Which brings us back to the status
> quo ex ante.
>
> JBH
>
> ------------
> Joe Bishop-Henchman
> LNC Member (At-Large)
> joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
> www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837
>
> On 2019-02-11 19:08, Whitney Bilyeu via Lnc-business wrote:
> > I also believe that an expressed abstention holds the place of a vote,
> > which would mean an alternate cannot vote on that matter. It is
> > essentially
> > NOTA when the two choices are Yes or No...
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:43 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> PS: to clarify I’m only appealing a portion of the ruling.  I do not
> >> contest that abstentions should not count in calculating the
> >> percentage- on
> >> my tally sheet I used that number 13 which is total cast and 10 is
> >> 3/4.
> >>
> >> I appeal the part that rules that an express abstention paves the way
> >> for
> >> the alternate vote to count.  It would lead to the absurd result that
> >> a
> >> regional who responds “present” would be contacted as absent.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:19 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
> >> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I appeal from the ruling of the Chair.
> >> >
> >> > In email votes how is this handled?
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:11 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
> >> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Dear All,
> >> >>
> >> >> Not voting is not a vote. Everything else is commentary.
> >> >>
> >> >> Under Robert’s Rules, an abstention, express or otherwise, is not a
> >> vote.
> >> >> They may be noted for clarity, such as accurately reflecting that a
> >> member
> >> >> was present for the purposes of quorum, or that the member didn’t
> miss
> >> the
> >> >> vote, but they do not change the vote count and do not count for the
> >> >> calculations of 2/3 or 3/4 unless there is a particular rule that
> >> refers to
> >> >> the number of members in the committee or number of members in
> >> attendance.
> >> >> By default, vote thresholds are of members “present and voting.”
> >> >>
> >> >> A regional alternate does not get a vote except in the absence of a
> >> >> regional representative’s vote, by stepping away from the table at an
> >> >> in-person meeting or by abstaining in a mail ballot.
> >> >>
> >> >> In absence of a specific rule in the bylaws or policy manual about
> >> >> express abstentions (as opposed to custom or past practice), Mr.
> >> >> O’Donnell’s abstention does not count as a vote for either the
> purpose
> >> of
> >> >> how many votes are required to meet the 3/4 threshold or for
> preventing
> >> Mr.
> >> >> Lyons’ vote from being counted as regional alternate and tallied.
> >> >>
> >> >> Yours truly,
> >> >> Nick
> >> >>
> >> >> P.S. If you would like to read more about the abstention issue,
> which is
> >> >> very commonly misunderstood, the following links may be of interest:
> >> >> http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> https://www.lawoforderblog.com/2018/03/4-things-most-people-get-wrong-about-abstentions/
> >> >> https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Voting-Abstention
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > *  In Liberty,*
> >> >
> >> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> >> Caryn.Ann.
> >> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> >> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >> >
> >> >
> =========================================================================
> >> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> >> All
> >> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws
> *
> >> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
> End
> >> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> >> Tax
> >> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> >> Services
> >> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> >> > Eliminate Regulation *
> >> >
> >> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> >> http://www.lp.org/>*
> >> >
> =========================================================================
> >> >
> >> --
> >>
> >> *  In Liberty,*
> >>
> >> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> >> Caryn.Ann.
> >> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> >> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >>
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> >> All
> >> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws
> >> *
> >> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
> >> End
> >> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> >> Tax
> >> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> >> Services
> >> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> >> Eliminate Regulation *
> >>
> >> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org
> >> <http://www.lp.org/
> >> >*
> >>
> =========================================================================
> >>
>
-- 

*  In Liberty,*

*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/

=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *

*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================