[Lnc-business] Point of order regarding abstention and alternate voting

Mon Feb 11 19:45:34 EST 2019

Considering that bylaw, will you join on the appeal?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:44 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
wrote:

> While we disagree on the path we agree on the outcome.
>
> I’m RONR abstain and present are functionally equivalent and in some
> organizations present is used as a matter of custom instead of abstain.
>
> Abstain is I am here and waiving the voting rights of my constituency.
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Joe Bishop-Henchman via Lnc-business <
> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
>> My gut reaction was that if Mr. O'Donnell had voted present, that would
>> have blocked Mr. Lyons's vote. But "I abstain" is synonymous with "I do
>> not vote" so it can't also be counted as a vote. Abstention is not "I am
>> here but affirmatively do not vote" - that's "present." (Whether
>> "expressly abstain" and "abstain" are the same thing...) I think Mr.
>> Sarwark reads RONR correctly.
>>
>> However, we have a bylaw (Article 13: Electronic Mail Ballots) that I'd
>> draw people's attention to: "Votes from alternates will be counted, in
>> accordance with previously defined ranked order, in the absence of the
>> corresponding committee member(s)."
>>
>> My reading is that Bylaw overrules RONR on this point and results in the
>> outcome Ms. Harlos determined. Alternates are only permitted to vote in
>> the absence of the regional representative. Mr. O'Donnell gave away that
>> he wasn't absent, so Mr. Lyons can't cast a vote. (Only if Mr. O'Donnell
>> had said "I am absent" would we be in the kooky situation Ms. Harlos
>> brought up, since it's self-contradictory. Anyone who records that they
>> are absent is not actually absent.) Which brings us back to the status
>> quo ex ante.
>>
>> JBH
>>
>> ------------
>> Joe Bishop-Henchman
>> LNC Member (At-Large)
>> joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org
>> www.facebook.com/groups/189510455174837
>>
>> On 2019-02-11 19:08, Whitney Bilyeu via Lnc-business wrote:
>> > I also believe that an expressed abstention holds the place of a vote,
>> > which would mean an alternate cannot vote on that matter. It is
>> > essentially
>> > NOTA when the two choices are Yes or No...
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:43 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
>> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> PS: to clarify I’m only appealing a portion of the ruling.  I do not
>> >> contest that abstentions should not count in calculating the
>> >> percentage- on
>> >> my tally sheet I used that number 13 which is total cast and 10 is
>> >> 3/4.
>> >>
>> >> I appeal the part that rules that an express abstention paves the way
>> >> for
>> >> the alternate vote to count.  It would lead to the absurd result that
>> >> a
>> >> regional who responds “present” would be contacted as absent.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:19 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
>> >> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I appeal from the ruling of the Chair.
>> >> >
>> >> > In email votes how is this handled?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:11 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
>> >> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Dear All,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Not voting is not a vote. Everything else is commentary.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Under Robert’s Rules, an abstention, express or otherwise, is not a
>> >> vote.
>> >> >> They may be noted for clarity, such as accurately reflecting that a
>> >> member
>> >> >> was present for the purposes of quorum, or that the member didn’t
>> miss
>> >> the
>> >> >> vote, but they do not change the vote count and do not count for the
>> >> >> calculations of 2/3 or 3/4 unless there is a particular rule that
>> >> refers to
>> >> >> the number of members in the committee or number of members in
>> >> attendance.
>> >> >> By default, vote thresholds are of members “present and voting.”
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A regional alternate does not get a vote except in the absence of a
>> >> >> regional representative’s vote, by stepping away from the table at
>> an
>> >> >> in-person meeting or by abstaining in a mail ballot.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In absence of a specific rule in the bylaws or policy manual about
>> >> >> express abstentions (as opposed to custom or past practice), Mr.
>> >> >> O’Donnell’s abstention does not count as a vote for either the
>> purpose
>> >> of
>> >> >> how many votes are required to meet the 3/4 threshold or for
>> preventing
>> >> Mr.
>> >> >> Lyons’ vote from being counted as regional alternate and tallied.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yours truly,
>> >> >> Nick
>> >> >>
>> >> >> P.S. If you would like to read more about the abstention issue,
>> which is
>> >> >> very commonly misunderstood, the following links may be of interest:
>> >> >> http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> https://www.lawoforderblog.com/2018/03/4-things-most-people-get-wrong-about-abstentions/
>> >> >> https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Voting-Abstention
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > *  In Liberty,*
>> >> >
>> >> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> >> Caryn.Ann.
>> >> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> >> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> >> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> >> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> =========================================================================
>> >> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
>> Re-Legalize
>> >> All
>> >> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
>> Laws *
>> >> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
>> End
>> >> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
>> Income
>> >> Tax
>> >> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
>> >> Services
>> >> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector
>> *
>> >> > Eliminate Regulation *
>> >> >
>> >> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
>> >> http://www.lp.org/>*
>> >> >
>> =========================================================================
>> >> >
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> *  In Liberty,*
>> >>
>> >> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> >> Caryn.Ann.
>> >> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> >> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> >> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> >> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >>
>> >>
>> =========================================================================
>> >> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>> >> All
>> >> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws
>> >> *
>> >> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
>> >> End
>> >> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
>> >> Tax
>> >> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
>> >> Services
>> >> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
>> >> Eliminate Regulation *
>> >>
>> >> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org
>> >> <http://www.lp.org/
>> >> >*
>> >>
>> =========================================================================
>> >>
>>
> --
>
> *  In Liberty,*
>
> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>
> =========================================================================
> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> Eliminate Regulation *
>
> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
> =========================================================================
>
-- 

*  In Liberty,*

*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/

=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *

*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================