[Lnc-business] Point of order regarding abstention and alternate voting

[Nicholas Sarwark]

I am aware of that bylaw, but I read absence as an absence of the
committee member (out of the country away from email) or the committee
member's vote (announcing an intention not to vote or abstaining).

-Nick

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:11 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
<lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
> I further draw the body's attention to our Bylaws (emphases and CAPS added):
>
>   ARTICLE 13: ELECTRONIC MAIL BALLOTS Boards and committees may transact
> business by electronic mail. The chair or secretary shall send out
> electronic mail ballots on any question submitted by the chair or
> cosponsored by at least 1/5 of the members of the board or committee. The
> period for voting on a question shall remain open for seven days, unless
> all members have cast votes, or have stated an intention to abstain or be
> absent during the voting period, by electronic mail to the entire board or
> committee.* Votes from alternates will be counted, in accordance with
> previously defined ranked order, in the ABSENCE of the corresponding
> committee member(s). *The outcome of each motion shall be announced
> promptly and recorded in the minutes of the next meeting. The number of
> votes required for passage of any motion shall be the same as that required
> during a meeting. Motions dispensed through electronic mail ballots satisfy
> the requirement of giving previous notice.
>
> Mr. O'Donnell was NOT absent.  It says nothing about alternates voting when
> the primary is present but declines.  Email voting (and proxy/alternate
> voting) must be explicitly laid out per RONR, and our Bylaws explicitly
> only allow for ABSENCE.
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 6:56 PM Richard Longstreth <
> richard.longstreth at lp.org> wrote:
>
> > I second the appeal after reading all three of the citations by the Chair.
> > I believe all of the citations provided are contradictory to his ruling if
> > read carefully.
> >
> > Richard Longstreth
> > Region 1 Representative (AK, AZ, CO, KS, MT, NM, OR, HI, UT, WA, WY)
> > Libertarian National Committee
> > richard.longstreth at lp.org
> > 931.538.9300
> >
> > Sent from my Mobile Device
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019, 16:19 Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org wrote:
> >
> >> I appeal from the ruling of the Chair.
> >>
> >> In email votes how is this handled?
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:11 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
> >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Dear All,
> >> >
> >> > Not voting is not a vote. Everything else is commentary.
> >> >
> >> > Under Robert’s Rules, an abstention, express or otherwise, is not a
> >> vote.
> >> > They may be noted for clarity, such as accurately reflecting that a
> >> member
> >> > was present for the purposes of quorum, or that the member didn’t miss
> >> the
> >> > vote, but they do not change the vote count and do not count for the
> >> > calculations of 2/3 or 3/4 unless there is a particular rule that
> >> refers to
> >> > the number of members in the committee or number of members in
> >> attendance.
> >> > By default, vote thresholds are of members “present and voting.”
> >> >
> >> > A regional alternate does not get a vote except in the absence of a
> >> > regional representative’s vote, by stepping away from the table at an
> >> > in-person meeting or by abstaining in a mail ballot.
> >> >
> >> > In absence of a specific rule in the bylaws or policy manual about
> >> express
> >> > abstentions (as opposed to custom or past practice), Mr. O’Donnell’s
> >> > abstention does not count as a vote for either the purpose of how many
> >> > votes are required to meet the 3/4 threshold or for preventing Mr.
> >> Lyons’
> >> > vote from being counted as regional alternate and tallied.
> >> >
> >> > Yours truly,
> >> > Nick
> >> >
> >> > P.S. If you would like to read more about the abstention issue, which is
> >> > very commonly misunderstood, the following links may be of interest:
> >> > http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
> >> >
> >> >
> >> https://www.lawoforderblog.com/2018/03/4-things-most-people-get-wrong-about-abstentions/
> >> > https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Voting-Abstention
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> *  In Liberty,*
> >>
> >> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> >> Caryn.Ann.
> >> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> >> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> >> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> >> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >>
> >> =========================================================================
> >> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> >> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> >> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> >> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
> >> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
> >> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> >> Eliminate Regulation *
> >>
> >> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/
> >> >*
> >> =========================================================================
> >>
> >
>
> --
>
> *  In Liberty,*
>
> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>
> =========================================================================
> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> Eliminate Regulation *
>
> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
> =========================================================================