[Lnc-business] Point of order regarding abstention and alternate voting

Mon Feb 11 20:44:04 EST 2019

Per RONR both email and alternates are frowned upon and must be explicit.
Further that same bylaw says “an intention to be absent” can be made and
that is different from an abstention. Further RONR 420-422 talks about
electronic ballots (though at a meeting) and says a roll call vote must
mirror as much as possible the rules for an oral or written ballot in which
we do not ever count an abstention as an invitation for an alternate to
vote.

I submit if this ruling stands then our meetings must follow suit.

As we have an appeal with a second, how do we proceed?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 6:25 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

> I am aware of that bylaw, but I read absence as an absence of the
> committee member (out of the country away from email) or the committee
> member's vote (announcing an intention not to vote or abstaining).
>
> -Nick
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:11 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
> <lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >
> > I further draw the body's attention to our Bylaws (emphases and CAPS
> added):
> >
> >   ARTICLE 13: ELECTRONIC MAIL BALLOTS Boards and committees may transact
> > business by electronic mail. The chair or secretary shall send out
> > electronic mail ballots on any question submitted by the chair or
> > cosponsored by at least 1/5 of the members of the board or committee. The
> > period for voting on a question shall remain open for seven days, unless
> > all members have cast votes, or have stated an intention to abstain or be
> > absent during the voting period, by electronic mail to the entire board
> or
> > committee.* Votes from alternates will be counted, in accordance with
> > previously defined ranked order, in the ABSENCE of the corresponding
> > committee member(s). *The outcome of each motion shall be announced
> > promptly and recorded in the minutes of the next meeting. The number of
> > votes required for passage of any motion shall be the same as that
> required
> > during a meeting. Motions dispensed through electronic mail ballots
> satisfy
> > the requirement of giving previous notice.
> >
> > Mr. O'Donnell was NOT absent.  It says nothing about alternates voting
> when
> > the primary is present but declines.  Email voting (and proxy/alternate
> > voting) must be explicitly laid out per RONR, and our Bylaws explicitly
> > only allow for ABSENCE.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 6:56 PM Richard Longstreth <
> > richard.longstreth at lp.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I second the appeal after reading all three of the citations by the
> Chair.
> > > I believe all of the citations provided are contradictory to his
> ruling if
> > > read carefully.
> > >
> > > Richard Longstreth
> > > Region 1 Representative (AK, AZ, CO, KS, MT, NM, OR, HI, UT, WA, WY)
> > > Libertarian National Committee
> > > richard.longstreth at lp.org
> > > 931.538.9300
> > >
> > > Sent from my Mobile Device
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019, 16:19 Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> > > lnc-business at hq.lp.org wrote:
> > >
> > >> I appeal from the ruling of the Chair.
> > >>
> > >> In email votes how is this handled?
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:11 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
> > >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Dear All,
> > >> >
> > >> > Not voting is not a vote. Everything else is commentary.
> > >> >
> > >> > Under Robert’s Rules, an abstention, express or otherwise, is not a
> > >> vote.
> > >> > They may be noted for clarity, such as accurately reflecting that a
> > >> member
> > >> > was present for the purposes of quorum, or that the member didn’t
> miss
> > >> the
> > >> > vote, but they do not change the vote count and do not count for the
> > >> > calculations of 2/3 or 3/4 unless there is a particular rule that
> > >> refers to
> > >> > the number of members in the committee or number of members in
> > >> attendance.
> > >> > By default, vote thresholds are of members “present and voting.”
> > >> >
> > >> > A regional alternate does not get a vote except in the absence of a
> > >> > regional representative’s vote, by stepping away from the table at
> an
> > >> > in-person meeting or by abstaining in a mail ballot.
> > >> >
> > >> > In absence of a specific rule in the bylaws or policy manual about
> > >> express
> > >> > abstentions (as opposed to custom or past practice), Mr. O’Donnell’s
> > >> > abstention does not count as a vote for either the purpose of how
> many
> > >> > votes are required to meet the 3/4 threshold or for preventing Mr.
> > >> Lyons’
> > >> > vote from being counted as regional alternate and tallied.
> > >> >
> > >> > Yours truly,
> > >> > Nick
> > >> >
> > >> > P.S. If you would like to read more about the abstention issue,
> which is
> > >> > very commonly misunderstood, the following links may be of interest:
> > >> > http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> https://www.lawoforderblog.com/2018/03/4-things-most-people-get-wrong-about-abstentions/
> > >> > https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Voting-Abstention
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> *  In Liberty,*
> > >>
> > >> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> > >> Caryn.Ann.
> > >> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> > >> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> > >> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> > >> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> > >>
> > >>
> =========================================================================
> > >> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
> Re-Legalize All
> > >> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws
> *
> > >> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
> End
> > >> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
> Income Tax
> > >> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> Services
> > >> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> > >> Eliminate Regulation *
> > >>
> > >> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> http://www.lp.org/
> > >> >*
> > >>
> =========================================================================
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *  In Liberty,*
> >
> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> Caryn.Ann.
> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> >
> > =========================================================================
> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> All
> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> Tax
> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> Services
> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> > Eliminate Regulation *
> >
> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> http://www.lp.org/>*
> > =========================================================================
>
-- 

*  In Liberty,*

*Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
*Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/

=========================================================================
Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
* Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
* Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
Eliminate Regulation *

*VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
=========================================================================