[Lnc-business] Point of order regarding abstention and alternate voting

Tue Feb 12 19:26:09 EST 2019

Though the vote in question was a vote that would have been the same as
mine, I don't believe it can be counted in light of Mr. O'Donnell's express
abstention.

I've got some time-sensitive things on my plate and only have time to write
brief supporting arguments here, however I would join an appeal of the
chair's ruling on that issue.

Rather than citing outside websites, all we need to look at is the wording
of our own bylaws and our own parliamentary authority.  Bylaw Article 13
does not say that the alternate vote counts in the absence of a "vote" from
the regional rep.  It was intentionally drafted that way with the
understanding that an abstention is by definition not a vote, and the
wording permits the regional rep to expressly abstain on behalf of the
region without a requirement to allow the alternate to step in.  During a
face-to-face meeting, a regional rep can choose to sit at the table and
abstain on behalf of the region, but if he wishes to allow the alternate to
vote he allows the alternate to take his seat and vote on behalf of the
region.  This wording allows the equivalent behavior in an email ballot.
The rep can vote, can expressly abstain on behalf of the region which
precludes an alternate's vote from being counted, can say he chooses to
essentially be absent and let the alternate vote for the region, or if he
says nothing the alternate can vote on behalf of the region.

I have very recently cited on this email list passages from RONR indicating
there is no distinction between saying "I abstain" or saying "present".
They are the same thing.  Present is not absent, and only if there is an
absence can the alternate vote.  The region rep can choose to be absent for
the vote so as to allow the alternate to vote.  That didn't happen if he
declared himself present by saying "I abstain".

Mr. O'Donnell may not have studied the nuances of the parliamentary
distinctions, and it may very well have been his intent to allow his
alternate to vote, even though he expressly abstained.  If that happened in
a face-to-face meeting, it would be easily resolved.  When the chair
counted the "no" votes, Mr. O'Donnell would have said, "Oh, I intended to
let my alternate vote."  Since the vote was still underway until the chair
announced the final tally, the chair would have updated his tally to swap
out the O'Donnell abstention with the Lyons vote, and it would have been
solved immediately because it was possible to speak up immediately.

But we're using this asynchronous email ballot thing, and it highlights yet
another of many reasons that email balloting is strongly discouraged on
page 1 of RONR.  It was impossible for Mr. Lyons and Mr. O'Donnell to speak
up in between the time that the Secretary typed the roll call data into her
results email message, and the time that she in the very same email message
indicated the passage of the motion.  Possible in a meeting.  Not possible
by email.  Email makes it impossible to react in a timely fashion in many
instances where it is important to do so.

-Alicia

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:44 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:

> Per RONR both email and alternates are frowned upon and must be explicit.
> Further that same bylaw says “an intention to be absent” can be made and
> that is different from an abstention. Further RONR 420-422 talks about
> electronic ballots (though at a meeting) and says a roll call vote must
> mirror as much as possible the rules for an oral or written ballot in which
> we do not ever count an abstention as an invitation for an alternate to
> vote.
>
> I submit if this ruling stands then our meetings must follow suit.
>
> As we have an appeal with a second, how do we proceed?
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 6:25 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
> > I am aware of that bylaw, but I read absence as an absence of the
> > committee member (out of the country away from email) or the committee
> > member's vote (announcing an intention not to vote or abstaining).
> >
> > -Nick
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:11 PM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business
> > <lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > I further draw the body's attention to our Bylaws (emphases and CAPS
> > added):
> > >
> > >   ARTICLE 13: ELECTRONIC MAIL BALLOTS Boards and committees may
> transact
> > > business by electronic mail. The chair or secretary shall send out
> > > electronic mail ballots on any question submitted by the chair or
> > > cosponsored by at least 1/5 of the members of the board or committee.
> The
> > > period for voting on a question shall remain open for seven days,
> unless
> > > all members have cast votes, or have stated an intention to abstain or
> be
> > > absent during the voting period, by electronic mail to the entire board
> > or
> > > committee.* Votes from alternates will be counted, in accordance with
> > > previously defined ranked order, in the ABSENCE of the corresponding
> > > committee member(s). *The outcome of each motion shall be announced
> > > promptly and recorded in the minutes of the next meeting. The number of
> > > votes required for passage of any motion shall be the same as that
> > required
> > > during a meeting. Motions dispensed through electronic mail ballots
> > satisfy
> > > the requirement of giving previous notice.
> > >
> > > Mr. O'Donnell was NOT absent.  It says nothing about alternates voting
> > when
> > > the primary is present but declines.  Email voting (and proxy/alternate
> > > voting) must be explicitly laid out per RONR, and our Bylaws explicitly
> > > only allow for ABSENCE.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 6:56 PM Richard Longstreth <
> > > richard.longstreth at lp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I second the appeal after reading all three of the citations by the
> > Chair.
> > > > I believe all of the citations provided are contradictory to his
> > ruling if
> > > > read carefully.
> > > >
> > > > Richard Longstreth
> > > > Region 1 Representative (AK, AZ, CO, KS, MT, NM, OR, HI, UT, WA, WY)
> > > > Libertarian National Committee
> > > > richard.longstreth at lp.org
> > > > 931.538.9300
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my Mobile Device
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019, 16:19 Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> > > > lnc-business at hq.lp.org wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I appeal from the ruling of the Chair.
> > > >>
> > > >> In email votes how is this handled?
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:11 PM Nicholas Sarwark via Lnc-business <
> > > >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Dear All,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Not voting is not a vote. Everything else is commentary.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Under Robert’s Rules, an abstention, express or otherwise, is not
> a
> > > >> vote.
> > > >> > They may be noted for clarity, such as accurately reflecting that
> a
> > > >> member
> > > >> > was present for the purposes of quorum, or that the member didn’t
> > miss
> > > >> the
> > > >> > vote, but they do not change the vote count and do not count for
> the
> > > >> > calculations of 2/3 or 3/4 unless there is a particular rule that
> > > >> refers to
> > > >> > the number of members in the committee or number of members in
> > > >> attendance.
> > > >> > By default, vote thresholds are of members “present and voting.”
> > > >> >
> > > >> > A regional alternate does not get a vote except in the absence of
> a
> > > >> > regional representative’s vote, by stepping away from the table at
> > an
> > > >> > in-person meeting or by abstaining in a mail ballot.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > In absence of a specific rule in the bylaws or policy manual about
> > > >> express
> > > >> > abstentions (as opposed to custom or past practice), Mr.
> O’Donnell’s
> > > >> > abstention does not count as a vote for either the purpose of how
> > many
> > > >> > votes are required to meet the 3/4 threshold or for preventing Mr.
> > > >> Lyons’
> > > >> > vote from being counted as regional alternate and tallied.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Yours truly,
> > > >> > Nick
> > > >> >
> > > >> > P.S. If you would like to read more about the abstention issue,
> > which is
> > > >> > very commonly misunderstood, the following links may be of
> interest:
> > > >> > http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> >
> https://www.lawoforderblog.com/2018/03/4-things-most-people-get-wrong-about-abstentions/
> > > >> > https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Voting-Abstention
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>
> > > >> *  In Liberty,*
> > > >>
> > > >> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> > > >> Caryn.Ann.
> > > >> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> > > >> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> > > >> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> > > >> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > =========================================================================
> > > >> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
> > Re-Legalize All
> > > >> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun
> Laws
> > *
> > > >> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed *
> > End
> > > >> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the
> > Income Tax
> > > >> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> > Services
> > > >> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private
> Sector *
> > > >> Eliminate Regulation *
> > > >>
> > > >> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> > http://www.lp.org/
> > > >> >*
> > > >>
> > =========================================================================
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > *  In Liberty,*
> > >
> > > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> > Caryn.Ann.
> > > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> > > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> > > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> > > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
> > >
> > >
> =========================================================================
> > > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
> > All
> > > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> > > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> > > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
> > Tax
> > > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
> > Services
> > > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> > > Eliminate Regulation *
> > >
> > > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
> > http://www.lp.org/>*
> > >
> =========================================================================
> >
> --
>
> *  In Liberty,*
>
> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
> Caryn.Ann.
> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>
> =========================================================================
> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> Eliminate Regulation *
>
> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/
> >*
> =========================================================================
>