[Lnc-business] DRAFT MINUTES LNC Meeting December 1-2, 2018 v4
Alicia Mattson
alicia.mattson at lp.org
Wed Feb 13 05:51:38 EST 2019
Interesting that you seem to think that ignoring the 4 other comments and
hanging the hat on the final piece of quoted advice represents a thread
supportive of the change to that footnote. That fifth quote, on a high
level, was saying essentially that you may choose to ignore all the first 4
"Danger! Keep out!" warnings and proceed, but you do so at your own risk.
Looking at the details of that quote, though, one has to ignore the "and
nobody objects" condition, though there is objection here. One has to
presume the clause "if you have a conflicting custom" to be true, though
I'd disagree on that aspect. And even if there were a well-established
custom, RONR says that as soon as someone objects to a custom which
conflicts with a rule, the custom falls to the ground. That's why he put
those particular conditions on the comment.
In summary, the situation fails to conform to the conditions he listed, and
if the situation had met those conditions, it wasn't a glowing endorsement.
-Alicia
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:42 PM Caryn Ann Harlos <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
wrote:
> I think you pointed out inadvertently what was not accurate - we have had
> a practice of including such requests that did not originate with me, ie
> Starchild (and often my) requests and the Legend of New Jersey Quarter.
>
> I think any other back and forth will just annoy others so I’ve said what
> I wish to.
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 11:10 PM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>
>> I am sure that some readers quickly get tired of back-and-forth, however I
>> think I do need to respond to this because of the implication that I am
>> mischaracterizing an off-list exchange.
>>
>> I wrote:
>>
>> "3) I previously commented about the footnote which was then numbered 56,
>> but is now numbered 54. Previously it merely indicated that you voted
>> “present” and it was “counted as” an abstention, and I commented that is a
>> distinction without a difference. After you inquired about it on an
>> internet forum and were advised to not indulge the member requesting you
>> to
>> include the reason for their abstention in the minutes, version 4 has
>> specifically added to the original phrasing an explanation that the
>> abstention was a “protest” vote. Now one person’s abstention is
>> explained,
>> though others’ votes/abstentions are not explained."
>>
>> CAH response:
>>
>> "On the last, that is not an entirely accurate account of the discussion
>> on
>> the RONR forum. And in the past, when a member requested (Starchild often
>> did) and at my request you included a winsome story about the New Jersey
>> quarter, so I am not agreeing to that change. I know not all other
>> members
>> feel we were out of line at that time, I do, and members of the gallery
>> and
>> Mr. Koerner expresses appreciation at my protest, thus it is significant
>> and relevant."
>>
>> I think my comment was a fair summary of the account of the discussion on
>> the RONR forum. Though there was another side theme among some who
>> thought
>> your question was whether a secretary is obligated to record the verbatim
>> words that one used to abstain even if they recited the Pledge of
>> Allegiance, or whether the secretary ignores the vocabulary and merely
>> categorizes it as an abstention just like the other abstentions -- of the
>> comments that directly answered the question of whether it was proper for
>> the minutes to say it was a "protest" abstention went like this:
>>
>> 1) Not really.
>> 2) It would not be proper to note in the minutes that the non-vote was an
>> act of protest.
>> 3) Minutes should be minimalist: "what was done, not what was said" Put
>> the other (entirely valuable, to be sure) stuff in a newsletter.
>> 4) I would strongly suggest that you not indulge her. Record her
>> abstention.
>>
>> The closest thing to support for the idea was not very supportive: "Well,
>> it's up to the assembly what to include. RONR does not allow
>> "explanations" to accompany voting. If you have a conflicting custom, and
>> nobody objects, well, you'll have to live with the results."
>>
>> Which of those pieces of advice suggested that the footnote be updated to
>> add that the reason for abstaining was a desire to protest? I don't agree
>> that my characterization was inaccurate.
>>
>> I also don't believe that I did indulge Starchild's many requests for
>> special notes in the minutes. I have a vague recollection of one instance
>> in which there was some informal-procedure agreement made for something
>> which would overcome his objection, or some such, so I put that in the
>> minutes because there actually was a collective decision made by the LNC
>> to
>> address it.
>>
>> It seems rather apples and oranges to say adding the detail that it was a
>> New Jersey coin used to break an election tie is the same as documenting
>> the rationale for one person's vote but not including the same for all the
>> other voters. I'm sure not all LNC members share the sentiment that the
>> reason for your vote was more "significant and relevant" than was the
>> reason for their vote. I think all my debate is significant and relevant,
>> else I wouldn't bother to take the time to say it.
>>
>> -Alicia
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 12:50 AM Caryn Ann Harlos <
>> caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Thank you - I will take a look. Have you had a chance to review the 1/6
>> > minutes?
>> >
>> > On the last, that is not an entirely accurate account of the discussion
>> on
>> > the RONR forum. And in the past, when a member requested (Starchild
>> often
>> > did) and at my request you included a winsome story about the New Jersey
>> > quarter, so I am not agreeing to that change. I know not all other
>> members
>> > feel we were out of line at that time, I do, and members of the gallery
>> and
>> > Mr. Koerner expresses appreciation at my protest, thus it is significant
>> > and relevant.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 12:34 AM Alicia Mattson via Lnc-business <
>> > lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Below are my comments regarding version 4 of the December minutes.
>> >>
>> >> 1) My previous comments included, “p. 31, footnote 44 documents only
>> part
>> >> of the net -$2,000 change. A previous Mattson motion increased it by
>> >> $8,000, then part H of the Henchman motion reduced it by $10,000 for
>> the
>> >> net change.”
>> >>
>> >> In version 4, the change was made to the wrong footnote. It was added
>> to
>> >> then-footnote-46, which is now-footnote-44 after the elimination of two
>> >> other footnotes. What version 4 needs now is to delete the phrase “,
>> and
>> >> Henchman-Longstreth Proposal H, Ballot 181202-6” from footnote 44, and
>> add
>> >> “and Mattson amendments on page 22” to footnote 42.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2) My previous comments included that footnote 33 was factually
>> >> incorrect,
>> >> since three is the normal number of annual LNC meetings, thus it is
>> not a
>> >> reduction. To address that comment, version 4 merely changed the
>> phrase
>> >> “reducing the number of in-person LNC meetings to three…” to “limiting
>> the
>> >> number of in-person LNC meetings to three…” The same comment still
>> >> applies
>> >> to this new wording. Since three is the normal number, limiting it to
>> >> three would not actually effect a reduction in that budget expense
>> >> category. The LNC only voted on the dollar reduction, without
>> specifying
>> >> how it would be accomplished, though the footnote implies that debate
>> >> comments by one or two people constituted some sort of group agreement.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 3) I previously commented about the footnote which was then numbered
>> 56,
>> >> but is now numbered 54. Previously it merely indicated that you voted
>> >> “present” and it was “counted as” an abstention, and I commented that
>> is a
>> >> distinction without a difference. After you inquired about it on an
>> >> internet forum and were advised to not indulge the member requesting
>> you
>> >> to
>> >> include the reason for their abstention in the minutes, version 4 has
>> >> specifically added to the original phrasing an explanation that the
>> >> abstention was a “protest” vote. Now one person’s abstention is
>> >> explained,
>> >> though others’ votes/abstentions are not explained.
>> >>
>> >> -Alicia
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:00 AM Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
>> >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I also uploaded to Dropbox
>> >> > - [1]
>> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zfvfwnu1xbgrprz/2018-12-01-02-MINUTES-V4
>> >> > .pdf?dl=0
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:56 AM Caryn Ann Harlos
>> >> > <[2]caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > It is attached... I see it on my email. You are not opening with
>> AOL
>> >> > are you? It was sent as a google drive link as it is a large
>> file.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:40 AM Sam Goldstein via Lnc-business
>> >> > <[3]lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Ms. Harlos,
>> >> > Where is the attachment?
>> >> > ---
>> >> > Sam Goldstein
>> >> > Libertarian National Committee
>> >> > 317-850-0726 Cell
>> >> > On 2019-01-20 00:03, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
>> >> > > After reviewing Ms. Mattson's comments, attached please find
>> >> > version 4
>> >> > > of the draft minutes. Please advise of any comments or
>> >> > corrections.
>> >> > > If I do not hear otherwise, after time has passed, I will
>> >> > asking for
>> >> > > co-sponsors to put these up for an email vote.
>> >> > > [1][icon_10_generic_list.png] 2018-12-01-02-MINUTES-V4.pdf
>> >> > > [x_8px.png]
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > In Liberty,
>> >> > >
>> [uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
>> >> > > Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>> Secretary
>> >> > > - [2]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> >> > > Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>> >> > > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
>> >> > > at [3][4]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> ====================================================================
>> >> > ===
>> >> > > ==
>> >> > > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
>> >> > > Re-Legalize
>> >> > > All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom *
>> Repeal
>> >> > All Gun
>> >> > > Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money *
>> >> > Abolish The
>> >> > > Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS
>> and
>> >> > > Repeal
>> >> > > the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure *
>> >> > > Free-market
>> >> > > Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government
>> >> > Schools To
>> >> > > The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
>> >> > > VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [4][5]http://www.LP.org
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> ====================================================================
>> >> > ===
>> >> > > ==
>> >> > >
>> >> > > References
>> >> > >
>> >> > > 1.
>> >> > >
>> >> > [6]
>> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sHtAyO_RikgGmyJOHTb0cAnQfkc3hd8M
>> >> > /view?usp=drive_web
>> >> > > 2. mailto:[7]Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> >> > > 3. [8]http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> > > 4. [9]http://www.lp.org/
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > In Liberty,
>> >> > [uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
>> >> > Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>> >> > Secretary - [10]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> >> > Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>> >> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
>> >> > at [11]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> >
>> >> =======================================================================
>> >> > ==
>> >> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
>> >> Re-Legalize
>> >> > All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All
>> Gun
>> >> > Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish
>> The
>> >> > Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and
>> Repeal
>> >> > the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure *
>> >> Free-market
>> >> > Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools
>> To
>> >> > The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
>> >> > VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [12]http://www.LP.org
>> >> >
>> >> =======================================================================
>> >> > ==
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > In Liberty,
>> >> > [uc?id=1DeRjq-L8dvRZabgEG94VkkUvjoHatcfP&export=download]
>> >> > Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee
>> >> > Secretary - [13]Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org or Secretary at LP.org.
>> >> > Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee - LPedia at LP.org
>> >> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page
>> >> > at [14]facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> >
>> >> =======================================================================
>> >> > ==
>> >> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism *
>> >> Re-Legalize
>> >> > All Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All
>> Gun
>> >> > Laws * Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish
>> The
>> >> > Fed * End Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and
>> Repeal
>> >> > the Income Tax * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure *
>> >> Free-market
>> >> > Emergency Services * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools
>> To
>> >> > The Private Sector * Eliminate Regulation *
>> >> > VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or [15]http://www.LP.org
>> >> >
>> >> =======================================================================
>> >> > ==
>> >> >
>> >> > References
>> >> >
>> >> > 1.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zfvfwnu1xbgrprz/2018-12-01-02-MINUTES-V4.pdf?dl=0
>> >> > 2. mailto:caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org
>> >> > 3. mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org
>> >> > 4. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> > 5. http://www.LP.org/
>> >> > 6.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sHtAyO_RikgGmyJOHTb0cAnQfkc3hd8M/view?usp=drive_web
>> >> > 7. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> >> > 8. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> > 9. http://www.lp.org/
>> >> > 10. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> >> > 11. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> > 12. http://www.lp.org/
>> >> > 13. mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org
>> >> > 14. http://facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >> > 15. http://www.lp.org/
>> >> >
>> >>
>> > --
>> >
>> > * In Liberty,*
>> >
>> > *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *-
>> Caryn.Ann.
>> > Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
>> > *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
>> > Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
>> > facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>> >
>> >
>> =========================================================================
>> > Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize
>> All
>> > Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
>> > Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
>> > Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income
>> Tax
>> > * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency
>> Services
>> > * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
>> > Eliminate Regulation *
>> >
>> > *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <
>> http://www.lp.org/>*
>> >
>> =========================================================================
>> >
>>
> --
>
> * In Liberty,*
>
> *Libertarian Party and Libertarian National Committee Secretary *- Caryn.Ann.
> Harlos at LP.org <Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> or Secretary at LP.org.
> *Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee* - LPedia at LP.org
> Call me at 561.523.2250 and follow my public figure page at
> facebook.com/pinkflameofliberty/
>
> =========================================================================
> Peaceful Commerce With All Nations * Non-interventionism * Re-Legalize All
> Drugs * End Government Intrusion In The Bedroom * Repeal All Gun Laws *
> Abolish All Taxation * Sound, Free-market Money * Abolish The Fed * End
> Corporate & Individual Welfare * Abolish The IRS and Repeal the Income Tax
> * Privatize Transportation Infrastructure * Free-market Emergency Services
> * Open Migration * Transfer Government Schools To The Private Sector *
> Eliminate Regulation *
>
> *VOTE LIBERTARIAN * 800-ELECT-US or http://www.LP.org <http://www.lp.org/>*
> =========================================================================
>
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