[Lnc-business] EMAIL BALLOT 200531-1 APPEAL FROM THE RULING OF THE CHAIR CONCERNING REMOVAL OF DANIEL HAYES FROM THE COC

[Sam Goldstein]

I vote No on this motion.  The Ruling of the Chair should be overturned.

---
Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
Libertarian National Committee
Convention Oversight Committee
317-850-0726 Cell

On 2020-06-02 06:28, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> This point becomes all the more important as we hear how our Chair
> pressured the new CoC chair.  Is she "insubordinate" now too?
> 
> *In Liberty,*
> 
> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social 
> faux
> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos 
> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Now that the chair has responded (in another thread) I will speak to 
>> my
>> motion.
>> 
>> the Chair's response misses the point.  He shows where he appointed 
>> past
>> members without objection.  No one disputes that because those members 
>> were
>> recommended by the CoC.  That is the whole point.  He does not get to
>> unilaterally appoint members per our Policy Manual.  Mr. 
>> Bishop-Henchman
>> states that this does not make it a joint appointment but it must 
>> certainly
>> does since it limits the Chair's authority.  RONR is clear that the 
>> chair
>> cannot unilaterally remove a member of a committee unless they had the
>> power to unilaterally appoint.  I will repost the point that Ms. 
>> Mattson
>> made on this already:
>> 
>> ==We have two entities here which jointly appoint non-LNC members to
>> the COC.  RONR addresses removal when an appointment is made by one
>> person. RONR addresses removal when it's made by an assembly like the 
>> LNC.
>> It doesn't really go into the scenario in which two entities have to 
>> agree
>> for an appointment.
>> 
>> What's the most reasonable approach for how such an appointment is
>> reversed?
>> 
>> If the two entities are considered together to be the appointing body,
>> one entity is not a majority of the appointing body.  Both entities 
>> have
>> to agree to get to that majority threshold for the appointment.
>> 
>> To reverse an appointment requires a motion to Rescind or to
>> Amend Something Previously Adopted.  These require a majority with 
>> notice,
>> a majority of the entire membership, or a 2/3 vote.  None of these
>> thresholds
>> can be met with just the LNC Chair without the COC.
>> 
>> The chair seems to be taking the position that it requires consent
>> from both to appoint, therefore if one of the two entities later
>> withdraws consent, the appointment is reversed.  This is not 
>> consistent
>> with how RONR
>> says committee appointments are reversed.  But the equal application
>> of this logic would say that, hypothetically speaking, if the COC 
>> removed
>> its consent for a different non-LNC member of the COC, that person 
>> would
>> no longer be on the committee, either, even if the Chair disagreed, 
>> right?
>> Or if the LNC had made an LNC-member appointment with a 9-8 vote, that 
>> any
>> of the 9 could later withdraw their consent and reverse the outcome.  
>> We
>> all know that one person can't later withdraw the deciding vote to
>> unilaterally kill a collective decision of the LNC.  Now that the 
>> question
>> is squarely in front of us and I'm having to develop a firm opinion 
>> about
>> it, I'm having trouble seeing the merits of this view of how our
>> joint-appointment policy works.==
>> 
>> Mr. Richard Brown concurs with Ms. Mattson's reasoning.
>> 
>> I will further add, though this is not directly to the procedure of 
>> the
>> issue, but more to the justice of it.  Mr. Sarwark had been publicly
>> threatening Mr. Hayes with removal for a few weeks now which is an 
>> improper
>> way to treat a volunteer.  Anyone on FB is sure to remember the 
>> ominous
>> "Insubordination is a gamble.  Make your bets wisely" post a few days
>> before the removal.  Disagreeing with Mr. Sarwark who himself is
>> insubordinate to the decisions of the LNC and CoC is not 
>> insubordination,
>> and such tactics belong in the authoritarian old parties.
>> 
>> *In Liberty,*
>> 
>> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
>> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
>> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If 
>> anyone
>> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social 
>> faux
>> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 5:11 PM Caryn Ann Harlos 
>> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> The proverbs say one man seems right until another argues his case
>>> 
>>> I just ask you read subsequent arguments with an open mind.  I have 
>>> not
>>> yet spoken to my motion.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 4:34 PM Alex Merced (LNC Vice Chair) via
>>> Lnc-business <lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Wasn’t sure if my first email was sent, but agree with Joes 
>>>> reasoning so
>>>> vote yes. Also, like Jo I agree these details should be made clearer 
>>>> for
>>>> future situations.
>>>> 
>>>> Alex Merced
>>>> Vice Chair of the Libertarian National Committee/LP
>>>> 
>>>> > On May 31, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
>>>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > I’m reserving my vote and argument for one day to give the chair his
>>>> > privilege.
>>>> >
>>>> > I would encourage others to do the same
>>>> >
>>>> > I would also encourage members to seek the counsel of Richard Brown
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 4:38 PM <joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I vote yes, to sustain the ruling. The language of the policy manual
>>>> is
>>>> >> that the non-LNC members are "selected by the LNC Chair" on the
>>>> >> recommendation of the COC. There is no explicit language governing
>>>> >> dismissals.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> While I would agree that a new member would need recommendation by
>>>> the COC
>>>> >> (although this may become moot due to a pending motion), our policy
>>>> manual
>>>> >> chose to be silent on the mechanism of dismissal and in that case it
>>>> rests
>>>> >> with who held appointment power. Presumably a Chair could refuse to
>>>> appoint
>>>> >> someone recommended by the COC, and the result would be a vacant
>>>> seat. The
>>>> >> Chair therefore ultimately selects the members.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In an analogous situation (President's removal of an appointee who had
>>>> >> received Senate confirmation for a fixed term, with no explicit
>>>> language
>>>> >> governing dismissals), the U.S. Supreme Court held in Myers v. United
>>>> >> States that the President may remove such a person. Congress since has
>>>> >> deliberately included such language when the agency involved is
>>>> intended to
>>>> >> be independent of the executive branch, vs. when it is intended to be
>>>> >> subordinate to the executive (or legislative). That case incidentally
>>>> >> officially exonerated President Andrew Johnson, whose impeachment was
>>>> >> pretextually about such a removal without Senate consent.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I've never been quite clear whether the COC is intended to be
>>>> independent
>>>> >> or subordinate, as they can act independently in some, but not all,
>>>> >> decisions delegated to them. This lack of clarity also mitigates
>>>> against
>>>> >> insulating members from removal. I would support efforts to clarify it
>>>> >> further, however.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> JBH
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On May 31, 2020 4:18 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
>>>> >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> EMAIL BALLOT 200531-1  APPEAL FROM THE RULING OF THE CHAIR CONCERNING
>>>> >> REMOVAL OF DANIEL HAYES FROM THE COC
>>>> >>
>>>> >> We have an electronic mail ballot.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by June 7, 2020 at 11:59:59 pm
>>>> >> Pacific time.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Co-Sponsors:  Goldstein, Harlos, Longstreth, Phillips, Smith
>>>> >>
>>>> >> =============================================
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Motion: The Chair has ruled he can not only remove Daniel Hayes as CoC
>>>> >> chair but also from the committee entirely.  Harlos appeals from the
>>>> >> ruling
>>>> >> of the chair that he can remove Hayes from the committee without CoC
>>>> >> approval since appointment required CoC approval.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> =============================================
>>>> >>
>>>> >> THRESHOLD REQUIRED:  A majority vote is required to overturn the
>>>> ruling of
>>>> >> the chair.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You can keep track of the Secretary's manual tally of votes here:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VntkXkkuQouUiWbt9bnI_TjSMKDiTaDDpvsYtTmJdhE/edit#gid=1053534570
>>>> .
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Votes are noted with a link to the actual ballot cast for
>>>> verification.
>>>> >> You
>>>> >> can find the time that the manual tally was last updated at the
>>>> bottom of
>>>> >> the sheet.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Please notify me of any discrepancies.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> *  In Liberty,*
>>>> >> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
>>>> >> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
>>>> >> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If
>>>> anyone
>>>> >> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
>>>> faux
>>>> >> pas) in an actual email, please contact me privately and let me
>>>> know.  *
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >
>>>> > *  In Liberty,*
>>>> > * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
>>>> > (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
>>>> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
>>>> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
>>>> faux
>>>> > pas) in an actual email, please contact me privately and let me know.
>>>> *
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>> 
>>> *In Liberty,*
>>> 
>>> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's 
>>> Syndrome
>>> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
>>> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If 
>>> anyone
>>> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social 
>>> faux
>>> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
>>> 
>>>