[Lnc-business] EMAIL BALLOT 200531-1 APPEAL FROM THE RULING OF THE CHAIR CONCERNING REMOVAL OF DANIEL HAYES FROM THE COC

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I didn't record vote in my argument.  I vote no.  The ruling of the chair
should be overturned.

*In Liberty,*

* Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
(part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social faux
pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *



On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 5:59 AM Sam Goldstein <sam.goldstein at lp.org> wrote:

> I vote No on this motion.  The Ruling of the Chair should be overturned.
>
> ---
> Sam Goldstein, At Large Member
> Libertarian National Committee
> Convention Oversight Committee
> 317-850-0726 Cell
>
> On 2020-06-02 06:28, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business wrote:
> > This point becomes all the more important as we hear how our Chair
> > pressured the new CoC chair.  Is she "insubordinate" now too?
> >
> > *In Liberty,*
> >
> > * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
> > (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If anyone
> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
> > faux
> > pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 4:27 AM Caryn Ann Harlos
> > <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Now that the chair has responded (in another thread) I will speak to
> >> my
> >> motion.
> >>
> >> the Chair's response misses the point.  He shows where he appointed
> >> past
> >> members without objection.  No one disputes that because those members
> >> were
> >> recommended by the CoC.  That is the whole point.  He does not get to
> >> unilaterally appoint members per our Policy Manual.  Mr.
> >> Bishop-Henchman
> >> states that this does not make it a joint appointment but it must
> >> certainly
> >> does since it limits the Chair's authority.  RONR is clear that the
> >> chair
> >> cannot unilaterally remove a member of a committee unless they had the
> >> power to unilaterally appoint.  I will repost the point that Ms.
> >> Mattson
> >> made on this already:
> >>
> >> ==We have two entities here which jointly appoint non-LNC members to
> >> the COC.  RONR addresses removal when an appointment is made by one
> >> person. RONR addresses removal when it's made by an assembly like the
> >> LNC.
> >> It doesn't really go into the scenario in which two entities have to
> >> agree
> >> for an appointment.
> >>
> >> What's the most reasonable approach for how such an appointment is
> >> reversed?
> >>
> >> If the two entities are considered together to be the appointing body,
> >> one entity is not a majority of the appointing body.  Both entities
> >> have
> >> to agree to get to that majority threshold for the appointment.
> >>
> >> To reverse an appointment requires a motion to Rescind or to
> >> Amend Something Previously Adopted.  These require a majority with
> >> notice,
> >> a majority of the entire membership, or a 2/3 vote.  None of these
> >> thresholds
> >> can be met with just the LNC Chair without the COC.
> >>
> >> The chair seems to be taking the position that it requires consent
> >> from both to appoint, therefore if one of the two entities later
> >> withdraws consent, the appointment is reversed.  This is not
> >> consistent
> >> with how RONR
> >> says committee appointments are reversed.  But the equal application
> >> of this logic would say that, hypothetically speaking, if the COC
> >> removed
> >> its consent for a different non-LNC member of the COC, that person
> >> would
> >> no longer be on the committee, either, even if the Chair disagreed,
> >> right?
> >> Or if the LNC had made an LNC-member appointment with a 9-8 vote, that
> >> any
> >> of the 9 could later withdraw their consent and reverse the outcome.
> >> We
> >> all know that one person can't later withdraw the deciding vote to
> >> unilaterally kill a collective decision of the LNC.  Now that the
> >> question
> >> is squarely in front of us and I'm having to develop a firm opinion
> >> about
> >> it, I'm having trouble seeing the merits of this view of how our
> >> joint-appointment policy works.==
> >>
> >> Mr. Richard Brown concurs with Ms. Mattson's reasoning.
> >>
> >> I will further add, though this is not directly to the procedure of
> >> the
> >> issue, but more to the justice of it.  Mr. Sarwark had been publicly
> >> threatening Mr. Hayes with removal for a few weeks now which is an
> >> improper
> >> way to treat a volunteer.  Anyone on FB is sure to remember the
> >> ominous
> >> "Insubordination is a gamble.  Make your bets wisely" post a few days
> >> before the removal.  Disagreeing with Mr. Sarwark who himself is
> >> insubordinate to the decisions of the LNC and CoC is not
> >> insubordination,
> >> and such tactics belong in the authoritarian old parties.
> >>
> >> *In Liberty,*
> >>
> >> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's Syndrome
> >> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> >> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If
> >> anyone
> >> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
> >> faux
> >> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 5:11 PM Caryn Ann Harlos
> >> <caryn.ann.harlos at lp.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The proverbs say one man seems right until another argues his case
> >>>
> >>> I just ask you read subsequent arguments with an open mind.  I have
> >>> not
> >>> yet spoken to my motion.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 4:34 PM Alex Merced (LNC Vice Chair) via
> >>> Lnc-business <lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Wasn’t sure if my first email was sent, but agree with Joes
> >>>> reasoning so
> >>>> vote yes. Also, like Jo I agree these details should be made clearer
> >>>> for
> >>>> future situations.
> >>>>
> >>>> Alex Merced
> >>>> Vice Chair of the Libertarian National Committee/LP
> >>>>
> >>>> > On May 31, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> >>>> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I’m reserving my vote and argument for one day to give the chair
> his
> >>>> > privilege.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I would encourage others to do the same
> >>>> >
> >>>> > I would also encourage members to seek the counsel of Richard Brown
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> On Sun, May 31, 2020 at 4:38 PM <joe.bishop-henchman at lp.org>
> wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I vote yes, to sustain the ruling. The language of the policy
> manual
> >>>> is
> >>>> >> that the non-LNC members are "selected by the LNC Chair" on the
> >>>> >> recommendation of the COC. There is no explicit language governing
> >>>> >> dismissals.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> While I would agree that a new member would need recommendation by
> >>>> the COC
> >>>> >> (although this may become moot due to a pending motion), our policy
> >>>> manual
> >>>> >> chose to be silent on the mechanism of dismissal and in that case
> it
> >>>> rests
> >>>> >> with who held appointment power. Presumably a Chair could refuse to
> >>>> appoint
> >>>> >> someone recommended by the COC, and the result would be a vacant
> >>>> seat. The
> >>>> >> Chair therefore ultimately selects the members.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> In an analogous situation (President's removal of an appointee who
> had
> >>>> >> received Senate confirmation for a fixed term, with no explicit
> >>>> language
> >>>> >> governing dismissals), the U.S. Supreme Court held in Myers v.
> United
> >>>> >> States that the President may remove such a person. Congress since
> has
> >>>> >> deliberately included such language when the agency involved is
> >>>> intended to
> >>>> >> be independent of the executive branch, vs. when it is intended to
> be
> >>>> >> subordinate to the executive (or legislative). That case
> incidentally
> >>>> >> officially exonerated President Andrew Johnson, whose impeachment
> was
> >>>> >> pretextually about such a removal without Senate consent.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I've never been quite clear whether the COC is intended to be
> >>>> independent
> >>>> >> or subordinate, as they can act independently in some, but not all,
> >>>> >> decisions delegated to them. This lack of clarity also mitigates
> >>>> against
> >>>> >> insulating members from removal. I would support efforts to
> clarify it
> >>>> >> further, however.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> JBH
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> On May 31, 2020 4:18 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos via Lnc-business <
> >>>> >> lnc-business at hq.lp.org> wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> EMAIL BALLOT 200531-1  APPEAL FROM THE RULING OF THE CHAIR
> CONCERNING
> >>>> >> REMOVAL OF DANIEL HAYES FROM THE COC
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> We have an electronic mail ballot.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by June 7, 2020 at 11:59:59
> pm
> >>>> >> Pacific time.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Co-Sponsors:  Goldstein, Harlos, Longstreth, Phillips, Smith
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> =============================================
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Motion: The Chair has ruled he can not only remove Daniel Hayes as
> CoC
> >>>> >> chair but also from the committee entirely.  Harlos appeals from
> the
> >>>> >> ruling
> >>>> >> of the chair that he can remove Hayes from the committee without
> CoC
> >>>> >> approval since appointment required CoC approval.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> =============================================
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> THRESHOLD REQUIRED:  A majority vote is required to overturn the
> >>>> ruling of
> >>>> >> the chair.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> You can keep track of the Secretary's manual tally of votes here:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VntkXkkuQouUiWbt9bnI_TjSMKDiTaDDpvsYtTmJdhE/edit#gid=1053534570
> >>>> .
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Votes are noted with a link to the actual ballot cast for
> >>>> verification.
> >>>> >> You
> >>>> >> can find the time that the manual tally was last updated at the
> >>>> bottom of
> >>>> >> the sheet.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Please notify me of any discrepancies.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> *  In Liberty,*
> >>>> >> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's
> Syndrome
> >>>> >> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> >>>> >> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If
> >>>> anyone
> >>>> >> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other
> social
> >>>> faux
> >>>> >> pas) in an actual email, please contact me privately and let me
> >>>> know.  *
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> --
> >>>> >
> >>>> > *  In Liberty,*
> >>>> > * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's
> Syndrome
> >>>> > (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> >>>> > communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If
> anyone
> >>>> > found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
> >>>> faux
> >>>> > pas) in an actual email, please contact me privately and let me
> know.
> >>>> *
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>
> >>> *In Liberty,*
> >>>
> >>> * Personal Note:  I have what is commonly known as Asperger's
> >>> Syndrome
> >>> (part of the autism spectrum).  This can affect inter-personal
> >>> communication skills in both personal and electronic arenas.  If
> >>> anyone
> >>> found anything offensive or overly off-putting (or some other social
> >>> faux
> >>> pas), please contact me privately and let me know. *
> >>>
> >>>
>