[Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2017-03: Cuban Arrests

Thu Feb 16 08:34:59 EST 2017

The point that has been missed in this discussion is that communication by government representatives (statists) is inevitably distorted by their guiding “principle” that the ends justify the means. As the Cato Institute said recently, if you implicitly trust everything represented by government officials as the truth, you need to have your head examined. They were referring specifically to “scientific studies” on health, nutrition and environmental issues and the fact that politics and science mix like oil and water and generally result in the objective scientific method being thrown out the window. The same applies to Cuban government claims that the two Libertarian activists had committed “crimes against society”. If you accept that at face value, as Cato said, you need to have your head examined.

Because government authoritarians use the ends, their own personal aggrandizement, as justification for their communication means of thinly disguised and disingenuous discrediting of all dissidents, I refuse to accept the Cuban authorities’ allegations against the two Libertarians. From my perspective, based on predictable authoritarian abuse of the truth, the burden of proof clearly rests with the Cuban authorities, not with the activists.

Accordingly, my vote on this motions remains an emphatic “YES”. I refuse to cave in to the temptation to hide behind institutional skirts by abstaining. 

Thoughts?

~David

Oct 20-22 2017 Omaha Libertarian Strategy Un-Convention

Celebrate Life, Set the Bar High and LIVE FREE

~David Pratt Demarest

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

Secretary, LPNE State Central Committee

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces at hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:36 PM
To: lnc-business at hq.lp.org
Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2017-03: Cuban Arrests

:)

-Caryn Ann 

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:28 PM Joshua Katz <planning4liberty at gmail.com <mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com> > wrote:

Lol

Joshua A. Katz

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:27 PM, Joshua Katz <planning4liberty at gmail.com <mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com> > wrote:

I suspect, without being sure, that the Sam referenced here is me.

Joshua A. Katz

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com <mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com> > wrote:

Sam, I am not so sure that while there is a state we object to *diplomatic* pressure.  Diplomatic pressure is peaceful.

I don't want to go Godwin here but I certainly think at a minimum if there was some huge atrocity going on somewhere we wouldn't say "meh say nothing."  No the question becomes, as Sam said, who do we believe?  And is this in our wheelhouse enough to comment.

If we believe the activists (and it doesn't appear to be anything like due process at all here), and we call for libertarian agitation worldwide, and it is a peaceful process, I see no reason why we wouldn't resolve this.

I am willing to be convinced either way as well.  

-Caryn Ann

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:52 PM, Joshua Katz <planning4liberty at gmail.com <mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com> > wrote:

Thank you for obtaining this.  Based on this documentation, it seems I'll have to choose who to believe - the Cuban authorities are alleging a crime, while the arrested deny it.  There is abundant reason to believe the activists over the government, but whether or not it is sufficient to make public accusations against their government, and call on the US government to intervene, I cannot say.  I will think on it a bit more.

Joshua A. Katz

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com <mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com> > wrote:

I inquired with LPNV who provided the attached memorandum for our consideration.

-Caryn Ann

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 12:35 PM, William Redpath <wredpath2 at yahoo.com <mailto:wredpath2 at yahoo.com> > wrote:

After reading various emails today, I will also change my vote to "Abstain," pending further information.  Thanks, Bill Redpath

--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 2/14/17, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynannharlos at gmail.com <mailto:carynannharlos at gmail.com> > wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Email Ballot 2017-03: Cuban Arrests

 To: "lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org> " <lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:lnc-business at hq.lp.org> >

 Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017, 2:11 PM

 If only our

 government's intervention was as benign as ours.

 But I think caution warranted so I

 will inquire more of NV and while I would put my own name to

 it, I am heeding the counsel of my colleagues and change my

 vote to 

 Abstain

 Until I see if there is more

 information to commit the organization's voice to

 it.

 - Caryn Ann

 On Tuesday, February 14, 2017,

 Daniel Hayes <danielehayes at icloud.com <mailto:danielehayes at icloud.com> >

 wrote:

 I am in the "need

 more information crowd" before I go intervening and

 entangling "overseas".  

 Daniel HayesLNC At Large

 Member

 Sent from my

 iPhone

 On Feb 14, 2017, at 10:44

 AM, Joshua Katz <planning4liberty at gmail.com <mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com> > wrote:

 If, in fact, I can verify

 this information, I am mostly in agreement with asking the

 US government to apply political pressure.  My concern on

 that measure has to do with who is running the US

 government.

 Joshua A. Katz

 On

 Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Whitney Bilyeu <whitneycb76 at gmail.com <mailto:whitneycb76 at gmail.com> > wrote:

 I agree with Joshua,

 and have tried to locate another source...no luck.  I am

 also not sure about asking the US government to apply

 "political pressure"...  

 Whitney

 Bilyeu

 On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at

 10:28 AM, Joshua Katz <planning4liberty at gmail.com <mailto:planning4liberty at gmail.com> >

 wrote:

 As I alluded to before this email ballot came out,

 I am having difficulty with this.  According to this

 motion, they were targeted for their activism, and are

 unjustly detained.  I suspect this is true, but I need to

 see evidence of this before I can endorse this party making

 such accusations against a foreign nation.  While nations

 often unjust detain people, it is also true that

 libertarians can, sometimes, commit crimes.  As of this

 moment, I do not even know what charges, if any, have been

 presented, so it is hard for me to say that these charges

 are false or trumped up.  

 I previously asked for more

 information, and Mr. O'Toole (thank you) forwarded a

 blog post from Mises.  I have nothing against Mises, and I

 have respect for the Institute, I spent many summers there,

 and the Institute supported me through some difficult times.

  (Full disclosure:  I do strongly disagree with the

 political tact that many associated with Mises have chosen.)

  But a blog post from them simply isn't the kind of

 information I am seeking.  Do we know of any sources that

 can verify that they are being held for their

 activism?

 Joshua A. Katz

 On Tue, Feb 14,

 2017 at 3:49 AM, Alicia Mattson <agmattson at gmail.com <mailto:agmattson at gmail.com> > wrote:

 We have an electronic mail

 ballot.

 Votes are due to the LNC-Business list by

 February 24, 2017 at 11:59:59pm Pacific

 time.

 Co-Sponsors:  Starchild, Harlos,

 Demarest, Vohra

 Motion:  The Libertarian National

 Committee condemns the unjust detention of libertarian

 activists Ubaldo Herrera Hernandez and Manuel Velasquez by

 agents of the Castro regime in Cuba on February 2, and

 demands the immediate safe release of these political

 prisoners who were targeted for their peaceful activism

 promoting limited government and free markets. We further

 ask the U.S. government's State Department to place

 diplomatic pressure on the Castro regime for their release,

 and encourage Libertarian Party members and supporters to

 contact their elected officials toward that end.

 -Alicia

 ______________________________

 _________________

 Lnc-business mailing list

 Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

 http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listi

 nfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org <http://lnc-business_hq.lp.org> 

 ______________________________

 _________________

 Lnc-business mailing list

 Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

 http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listi

 nfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org <http://lnc-business_hq.lp.org> 

 ______________________________

 _________________

 Lnc-business mailing list

 Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

 http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listi

 nfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org <http://lnc-business_hq.lp.org> 

 ______________________________

 _________________

 Lnc-business

 mailing list

 Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

 http://hq.lp.org/mailman/

 listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp. org

 --

 In

 Liberty,Caryn Ann

 HarlosRegion 1

 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado,

 Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann.

 Harlos at LP.orgCommunications <mailto:Harlos at LP.orgCommunications>  Director, Libertarian Party of

 ColoradoColorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party

 Radical Caucus

 -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

 _______________________________________________

 Lnc-business mailing list

 Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

 http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________

Lnc-business mailing list

Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- 

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org <mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> 

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> 

Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> 

_______________________________________________

Lnc-business mailing list

Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________

Lnc-business mailing list

Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-- 

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Harlos at LP.org <mailto:Caryn.Ann.Harlos at LP.org> 

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado <http://www.lpcolorado.org> 

Colorado State Coordinator, Libertarian Party Radical Caucus <http://www.lpradicalcaucus.org> 

_______________________________________________

Lnc-business mailing list

Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________

Lnc-business mailing list

Lnc-business at hq.lp.org <mailto:Lnc-business at hq.lp.org> 

http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/attachments/20170216/735affdd/attachment-0002.html>
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: Untitled attachment 03837.txt
URL: <http://hq.lp.org/pipermail/lnc-business/attachments/20170216/735affdd/attachment-0002.txt>